NewB Needs Help

[mievil]

Hey guys and gals. Here's the deal.

I drive an 04 Focus. Over the past year I've been putting this and that into it performance wise and really liked the way it was shaping up. Then I decided to get into AutoX-ing. So after some serious research I found out that the Focus is only truely competitive in the stock class. So I decided to enter in the stock class and began the re-transformation.

Now I'm at a cross-roads. I don't mind my car right now, but I was certainly more happy with everything about it in the configuration I had it before (which incidently would place me in STS.......damn you Civics) but in which case the car would be completely outclassed even if I was a good driver (which in time will occur).

I realize that this should be a sport to have fun in. I also realize that I have a long way to go until I myself am in a confidence and experience level in which I can be competitive as a driver.

So what to do? Do I say "I'd enjoy my car all around if I just did what I wanted to do to it and came out for fun." Or do I look at the entire driving experience, and realize that no matter what I do to the car, I'd be better off starting from scratch and learning the car inside out before I start putting things back on? Such a dilema.

Any suggestions?

[frosty]

I'll give you the advice that has been given to me and given to others just starting out.

When you just start out, it doesn't matter how competitive your car is. Any minor differences in class competitiveness will be far outweighed by lack of experience. Driving autox is so much harder than driving on the roads. So, drive a year with your current configurations, then decide which class to go to. More importantly, have fun.

We noobs get caught up with words like "competitive" and "mods." Really, we should worry about words like "skill" and "technique," which we lack in comparison to the veterans.

Edit:
I just realized you aren't new to the forum and have seen this already. Perhaps moving this to the FAQ would be good.

[mievil]

Perhaps not new to the forum, but new to the sport. ;) I used to feel pretty strongly about how well I thought I could drive. It was the Novice Day that kicked me in the shorts.

You suggest driving a year in my current configuration. Just for clarification, you suggest sticking with the stock setup?

[mievil]

Perhaps it should be in the FAQ however.

[rodger]

Opinion is, the car will be competative in FSP too.

And you could always run in IS3, our local class.

[frosty]

Perhaps not new to the forum, but new to the sport. ;) I used to feel pretty strongly about how well I thought I could drive. It was the Novice Day that kicked me in the shorts.

You suggest driving a year in my current configuration. Just for clarification, you suggest sticking with the stock setup?

I mean to stick with whatever your car has. You spent money on the mods you put on it, so why should you take it off just to get in a class you aren't experienced enough to be competitive in? Besides, asside from the ST classes, you need to have R-compounds to be truely competitive. Everyone I have talked to have agreed that using R-compounds early on in autox will ruin your driving technique as it will hide mistakes and be far more expensive than a novice should bother with.

[chapmanr]

Speaking from experience as one who didn't do it, I think a new driver is better off in stock than anywhere else.

However, I do think that good autocrossable tires are important. To judge your progression as a driver, you need to be able to reference yourselves against the class front runners, who will almost always be on R tires. Otherwise, newer folks tend to focus on their equipment's deficiencies instead of their driving improvement when they evaluate their performance.

I don't know that R tires are a bad choice, especially the Kumho 710s since they last so darn long, don't flat spot easily, and communicate well. But, you shouldn't drive them on the street much (especially in the winter) so you would need to get a second set of rims as well.

But, you absolutely need a good set of ultra high performance tires.

The ST tires are a great choice for this reason. They are very close in performance to the last generation of R tires. My suggestions would be Falken RT-615, Kumho Ecsta MX, and the old Falken Azenis RT-215 (in that order).

These are streetable, and should last a full year of street/autocrossing. They will put your equipment on the same playing field, and you won't have to buy a set of rims as with R tires.

But, most of all, just get started, drive all you can, do the guided coursewalks, and ride with experienced drivers whenever you can.

[mievil]

I've already got a second set of dedicated wheels, and the RT-615s will be in my hands at the end of this month. I had heard about running R's and the learning process and determined that in my specific case, I needed to start with a street tire as the R's tend to mask your mistakes which in essence doesn't really help as much as hinder.

Frosty, I think you're right, but everything has already been removed, so I'd either have to reinstall (which isn't an issue cause I love dinking around with it) or leave it in it's stock form right now.


I haven't quite found any info on the IS3 class. Where can I read up on that?

[SD MR2]

I was in much the same situation as you when I started autoxing with an '85 MR2 I purchased that had already been slightly modified. It was lowered with modest intake/exhaust upgrades, and all I had were my street tires for the first year (which, in the San Francisco Region, was fine since the rookie class is restricted to street tires - great idea, I think, that we should consider in SDR).

Ultimately, I do believe it helped me to run on street tires first (1-1/2 years). I felt more capable of truly exploiting the higher limits of R-compound tires after that period, and then did OK with my humble first gen MR2 against the multitude of Miatas in IS2-class. I've since switched to E-Stock in a 2nd gen MR2, but still feel the benefits of learning car control within the lower limits of street tires were worth the "wait".

-Andy
#828

[itrbruce]

Echoing a bunch of the above...
Definitely stick to street tires for learning how to drive (for at least 6 or so months and maybe more depending on how things go). It will most likely take considerably longer than 6 months to be competitive, so don't sweat so much about the tires and car setup; just learn how to drive better first, then start to worry about your equipment. Also, good R's ain't cheap, so why pay the extra $$$.
As for car mods or no mods, see above... i.e. don't worry about it so much either way. Have some fun. If you enjoy tinkering, go ahead and stick the mods back on; or not. It really won't make that much difference, but I guess I might suggest trying to get the car in a fairly stable state so you can evaluate how YOU and your driving is progressing over time. When it does come time you think your driving can be competitive, the general recommendation would be to start stock unless your stock car simply cannot be competitive in its class; if it can't, then mod away (or get a different car).

[woodrufj]

Now I'm at a cross-roads. I don't mind my car right now, but I was certainly more happy with everything about it in the configuration I had it before (which incidently would place me in STS.......damn you Civics) but in which case the car would be completely outclassed even if I was a good driver (which in time will occur).This is why STS is so popular. Its a fun set of rules that for the most part keep the car streetable. There are plenty of non-civics in STS that are having the time of their lives.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[nalbar]

Speaking as a person who does NOT have a competitive STS car yet still runs there;

Forget EVERYTHING except your own desires. Do YOU like the way your car feels with the mods on it? If you like it as it is, by all means run STS. You will find there is a terrific bunch of people in STS. And you will find cars similiar to yours there. The actual class you run does not matter, it's whether YOU are happy. At novice stage all you are aiming for is the person who beat you last time anyway.

Keep your car the way it is. Trust me, you are not going to beat the stock guys anyways.


nalbar

[mievil]

Trust me, you are not going to beat the stock guys anyways.


nalbar

I damn near take that as a challenge, sir.:p

[frosty]

<-------- Is a stock guy :p

[kartdriver]

Dont listen to Andy #828.:cool: He just won the 2005 E stock championship with his MR2.:p I wanna be like Andy!:( Of course he only had like... 9 wins or something.

Lonely Miata driver

[SD MR2]

Dont listen to Andy #828.:cool:

Lonely Miata driver


Hey Scott,
I just dread the day that you show up in an MR2! :o
-Andy

[CivicTom]

If you've done a reasonable job modifying your car already just go into STS. If you're posting here then I ddoubt you have a blinged out slammed showmobile ;)

Like everyone has said it's all about learning to be a better driver right now and to do that keeping your equipment consistant is important. Also a good set of street tires are invaluable. I remember my novice school, and if you didn't give the timing lights a 'love tap' you did better than I did!

Also you can usually get down into the top 5 in STS locally on driver skill and some good setup take Warren's maytag for example, Tyson and I used to duke it out there, my '02 Civic HX (Hella eXtreme!), so don't let the '89 Si's get you down there. That said after a whole practice day in my car I dropped 2 seconds the first lap I got in a nationally preped '89 Si and I couldn't even see over the dash :o

[cshodges]

I think you'll find that at the beginning, you could keep your mods, get a set of R-comp tires, sneak into the stock class, and still have your butt handed to you.

Run in the lowest class your car qualifies for, and don't worry about points. Just look at the time difference between yourself and the top drivers. Concentrate on shrinking that number by improving your skill. When you can't shrink that difference anymore, then start to look elsewhere. Stick with street tires, but get max performance summer tires if you can manage. Most importantly, run as a Novice for your first three championships and get an instructor. In fact, if your class runs in the early morning, you may want to jump to a different, higher, class that runs later in the day to increase your chance of having an instructor (hard to come by in the first 1 or 2 run groups, because riding with you disqualifies them from points). Look into doing X runs. Get an instructor for your X runs. Stick around all day and do fun runs if they're available. Basically, get as much seat time as you can, and as much of that as possible with an instructor.

[frosty]

I had driven a few events here and there, but when I got Jeff in as an instructor at the Dec 3rd event, I think I made a major break-through on my gas control.

It's not just about coming and running 3 runs. The more runs you can get on the same course on the same day will help you improve as a novice (atleast, that's my experience). I'm still learning the course the second run through. If I only do 3 runs, that means I only have one run where I really know the course. Yeah, there is a course walk. I do the walk and focus, but there is tons that I don't pick up.

At the next event, I'm planning on getting an SCCA membership (for the discount) and X-runs (since cheap runs aren't going to be very available from short daylight).

[CivicTom]

Later in the season when we start to get more daylight I recommend that if you have a favorite instructor or someone who you connect with, ask them if they'll ride with you during fun runs. Every run is valuable.

Also if you're a novice afternoon runner, still show up early in the morning for the coursewalk then watch the cars and take the novice course walk at lunch and compare what you hear there against what you came up with. Before you even get to grid you should be able to run the whole course in your head. I like to do a nano course walk in my head where I 'walk' the course in a few feet next to my car but with my hands and feet practicing exactly what I think I'll need to do in the car. Generally I look like a drunk mental case doing it but I ffind it helps me memorize:p

[cshodges]

It also helps to try to work the course near a section you're having trouble with, to see how other cars are attacking it.