El Toro

[RandyC]

Good article in last Sunday's Union Trib on the planned redevelopment of El Toro. I had read some rumors of a possible motorsports thing at El Toro, but the image from the Union Trib shows only parks and homes and development where the runways are now.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060507/images/greatpark.gif

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060507/news_mz1h07park.html

Is there some other section of El Toro not being developed? Is this the end of El Toro for autocrossers. :( What is AMCI going to do?

[barkingspyder]

There is an area marked "Sports Complex" they just don't define it.

[froggy47]

There is an area marked "Sports Complex" they just don't define it.

That's code for beach volleyball, Over The Line, and mini golf.

[Killdozer]

So is this official or are they still screwing around with us? It seems like they've been screwing around for nearly a decade...

[CNaylor]

Lennar (in CA were more familier with one of their subsdaries Greystone Homes) out bid several other home builders and bought the property. As a owner of another one of their projects (built 2003), we receive their junk mail every time the start a new project in SoCal. Last November they mailed us a huge package of info about the planned use of the land. The map Randy posted is much more generic than what we received. Our package also included "artist's renderings" of several of the developments, along with lots of details on just how much $ their spending on habitat/ecosystem reperations as being such a kind hearted neighbor. I threw out the packet, but something like 15k units (homes, condo's apts) will be built.

Craig

[RandyC]

Sample video from El Toro this Saturday

http://www.chasecam.com/video/higher.mpg

Close to 75 megs, MPEG2

[SoJim]

So is this official or are they still screwing around with us? It seems like they've been screwing around for nearly a decade...

Depends on who "they" are, in this case it is the Irvine officials. Closer to home (SD) we are the 6th or 7th largest city in the US and we don't have a race track or motorsports facility. But don't expect one soon, for almost 40 years "they" have been discussing a new airport, all they can conclude is that the Marines (was Navy) should give up or share Miramar. It won't happen...............

Don't look to San Diego leaders to get anymore done than getting re-elected.

[MX5bob]

Don't look to San Diego leaders to get anymore done than getting re-elected.
And they don't even do that very well.

Right now, El Toro still sits pretty much as it's been since the base closed, except for AMCI's space and some RV storage. There are still miles of runways and taxiways to be excavated, old buildings to be razed and utilities to be added or rerouted. And some environmental clean-up, afterall what military base hasn't dumped something.

[Scoobydo]

Perhaps we should try different tactics. A special event at Qualcomm, or El Toro that caters to So. Cal representatives, officials and their families and friends. Take them for a few ride alongs. Interest them in the sport of auto racing and then casually let them know that it would be nice if something similar, or better could be done at El Toro. PS: if anyone has a car that they don't mind loaning for the day??? That might help too.

PS: I know it will take more than just this, but a couple of these events and some well placed letters and phone calls could make ALL the difference. But it starts with friends in influencial positions. If we don't have any then we have to make some. My 2 cents.
ScoobyDo

[Chas]

I like the idea of more traffic in orange county / san diego

[81MakoJ]

Only thing I'd hate about El Toro is that I'd actually have to get up at like 5 or 6 to get there on time, instead of 6:30 or 7 like I do now. Qualcomm's close proximity is so unfair.

[froggy47]

I'll give you a 2nd thing to dislike about El Toro, it eat's tires like there is no tomorrow. Bring extras.

If it were redeveloped & a proper surface installed, it's really not too bad a drive.

Take a ride to Willow Springs some weekend it you want a long drive to a race complex.

:)

[81MakoJ]

I was considering going to California Speedway in the near future some time. Two reasons I haven't yet, though. One being the long drive up to Fontana just for 3 runs, the other being that the group up there sounds a bit prejudice. I've heard they tend to make courses that truly favor certain cars. Just hearsay there, though.

[RandyC]

I've heard they tend to make courses that truly favor certain cars. Just hearsay there, though.

Not true at all. All courses favor certain cars but there is not just one type of course done at Cal Speedway. If anything, San Diego tends to do more courses that favor certain cars.

[RandyC]

I'll give you a 2nd thing to dislike about El Toro, it eat's tires like there is no tomorrow. Bring extras.

More true on the old surface, not so much on the new surface we run on. It is pretty slippery asphalt.

[frosty]

Not true at all. All courses favor certain cars but there is not just one type of course done at Cal Speedway. If anything, San Diego tends to do more courses that favor certain cars.

I've noticed a distinct bias against cars with turbo lag, understeer, soft suspension, and a driver who doesn't have much experience and didn't pay attention during the course walk. :rolleyes:

[cshodges]

... and a driver who doesn't have much experience and didn't pay attention during the course walk. :rolleyes:

That tends to be very true of most courses on most lots. Especially if you replace "didn't pay attention during" with "didn't attend".... :eek:

[woodrufj]

If anything, San Diego tends to do more courses that favor certain cars.:-) True that. Better now than it used to be.

Froggy, you need to try out some concrete, El Toro is not a tire shredder. I think you're opinion is skewed because Qualcom is easy on tires (but the sacrifice is less grip).

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[frosty]

That tends to be very true of most courses on most lots. Especially if you replace "didn't pay attention during" with "didn't attend".... :eek:

Hey! I always walk the co... Oh you mean those other novices who keep hitting cones. ;)

[froggy47]

I was considering going to California Speedway in the near future some time. Two reasons I haven't yet, though. One being the long drive up to Fontana just for 3 runs, the other being that the group up there sounds a bit prejudice. I've heard they tend to make courses that truly favor certain cars. Just hearsay there, though.


I've run all the SDR events (going for the get a life award again) and 6 cscc events this year, a couple more to go at each venue. Add 6 or so practices - so a pretty fair SoCal sampling this year.

There are 90% great, cool, friendly people each end & 10% - you know - just avoid them.

As to course design, you can count on there being 3 or 4 courses a year in San Diego that punish big cars for their characteristics of simply being wide/long/ and not so easy to rotate. That's too bad, but until I step up to design a course, I keep my mouth shut. It is what it is. I know more than one guy who just turns his car around and leaves when one of these courses presents itself.

I'd love to get inside the head of the a guy/gal who sets out to design one of these courses & ask why? What is the reward for designing a course that ticks off close to half the drivers who show up for an event. I dunno? This is how it will be when you have individual clubs (often favoring a certain marque or "type" of vehicle) who take on the responsibility for course design. And I'm not trying to single out ANY club at all. If this does not satisify a driver then there are track events where the course largely remains unchanged from event to event. Not as convient & more expensive to say the least. Would it not be better to have your autox peers come up to you after the event & say GREAT COURSE! My new favorite designer (Name starts with a W.) is really putting some thought/effort into his design & it shows. Keep 'em coming dude.

This year seems to have been better than 05 and 04. A couple with clear flaws were fixed by common sense b4 the first run group went out.

At Fontana you get maybe 1 or 2 a year, and it's usually by accident rather than by design. Last sunday was a very cool 60 to 70 sec. course done by a fairly new (to our area) guy who runs an s2000 (not a big car by any measure).

So IMHO (make that in my EXPERIENCE) it's really more the opposite. Cal Club events have more "normalized" courses - where normalized means ss times beat as times, as times beat bs times (of course there are exceptional drivers who break thru these averages).

As to the distance, there are a few sections of I15, where, traffic permitting, you can test you speedo to see if triple digits will show up. Not that I would every suggest deviating from the Calif. Vehicle Code.

PS If you pick a run group that runs after lunch, you can sleep in a little. They have a street tire class SK1 that you could run that Shark in:) with the tires you have now. ALL drivers times are PAX indexed & you would probably get a pretty good index benefit with your 81. Anyone know what it is?

Now is a good time to do Fontana, attendance is off a little, temps are down (of course grip is down too - ask me how I know), fun runs usually happen - I don't know about yesterday as I left so as to have time to wash the Black Vette b4 dark.

[frosty]

I'd love to get inside the head of the a guy/gal who sets out to design one of these courses & ask why? What is the reward for designing a course that ticks off close to half the drivers who show up for an event.

My guess is that a course designer will tend to subconsciously design a course that favors them.

A course designer will design a course they would consider fun to drive
A course that a person does well in will tend to be more fun
A person is more likely to do well on a course if it favors their car


If you were to ask me to design a course, I would tend to design one with lots of sweepers, a lot of speed maintenance like on 10/7, a couple of short slaloms, maybe a couple of tight turns that my car could drive at least 30 through (that's about the bottom range of boost). Why? Because it'd be a course that'd be fun to drive. I might even go so far as to say "other than people who still need to work on late apexing, I can't think of anyone who wouldn't like this sort of course."

But I think this is the mentality of those who design these sorts of courses. I remember a certain club-only practice where everyone was complaining about the course saying it was way too tight (someone referenced some rule about any car having to be able to go at least 15 mph through every turn). The designer said "if you aren't, then you aren't driving it right." He thought it was a fun course and didn't know why someone else didn't like it. I tried drifting that section. :rolleyes: (it sort of worked once)

[RandyC]

The reason most people design courses, is because it needs to be done. It is mostly a task that brings criticism from a percentage of the entrants. My goal is to only minimize that criticism. It is well known that a few vocal people loudly complain about almost any course.

Some people only want road courses. Some want them lined with cones. Some want fewer cones. Some want more tricky elements. Some want to go faster. Some hate going too fast. Some just like to bitch and feel superior.

But you design them anyways... because if you don't... someone else will and you hope you can make a better course and bring some experience to the task. The same reason I think almost any of us volunteer for anything.

And I don't think most course designers factor in their own car. I really do not. But there have been a couple cases in the last two years that I thought it came into play with one club. That is all I will say about that. ;)

[froggy47]

:-) True that. Better now than it used to be.

Froggy, you need to try out some concrete, El Toro is not a tire shredder. I think you're opinion is skewed because Qualcom is easy on tires (but the sacrifice is less grip).

Jay W
505/287 Dakota


I could be wrong, won't be the first time. When we set up pits on the taxiways (lots of space there) I got down on hands & knees & examined the surface, felt it, scuffed it with my driving shoes.

Compared to Q, Fontana, H Park it was like sand paper. It would make your hand bleed if you dragged it across fast.

Like I said in another post, maybe there are differences at different parts of the air base. Wasn't just me either, several other drivers mentioned that they corded their tires that day. Maybe we had a section that had not been run on lately. The grip was GRIP, I will say that. But this was like rough textured concrete, with a kicker. Like the paddock area at the North Island Vintage races if you have been to them.

Keep in mind also it's usually 14 runs at a PCA event.

:)

[RandyC]

There are other areas of El Toro to run on. The area we have been using this year for the Lotus club is slippery. Sandy.

[nalbar]

The reason most people design courses, is because it needs to be done. It is mostly a task that brings criticism from a percentage of the entrants. My goal is to only minimize that criticism. It is well known that a few vocal people loudly complain about almost any course.

Some people only want road courses. Some want them lined with cones. Some want fewer cones. Some want more tricky elements. Some want to go faster. Some hate going too fast. Some just like to bitch and feel superior.

But you design them anyways... because if you don't... someone else will and you hope you can make a better course and bring some experience to the task. The same reason I think almost any of us volunteer for anything.

And I don't think most course designers factor in their own car. I really do not. But there have been a couple cases in the last two years that I thought it came into play with one club. That is all I will say about that. ;)


Randy is correct IMO. Another thing is this; IMO some of the more experienced designers get sick of the critisism they get no matter what you do. So they stop doing them, or do them infrequently. This means (maybe) a less experienced person has to 'step up'. If you get a couple courses in a row designed by less experienced people you will get the usual beginner mistakes, all in a row. Too tight, for instance. It's a LOT of work that goes into a course, and there is nothing worse than doing all that work and having people 'disrespect' it.

I really don't think most designers even think of their own cars when setting up. The ones I talk to (to pick their brains) ALL want everyone to have fun.

Whether it is LA or SD all lots tend themselves to a certain 'type'. LA does not have a lot of room for huge straights, so they get a lot of 'back and forth. SD we tend to have the same 'run up the hill' (or down), the same big sweeper at the far end, the same 'run across the top', and the same slolumn at the finish. But LA is more experimental with gates and open courses, and SD can do more with the camber we have.

No matter who the designer is sometimes things don't work quite the way they plan. Never EVER forget that it is all seat time, and even the worst course has something you need to work on. And ALWAYS respect the effort some poor guy put into it.

I think there are more than a few 'good' drivers who forget that.

nalbar

[kb58]

The way to stop that is to announce, "from now on, anyone criticizing the course will be required to design the next one."

[81MakoJ]

Excellent discussion on course design I seemed to have started. Much thanks to froggy for the heads up on cali speedway, I'll have to see if I can make a trip up there in late december, when we don't have events down here.

My '81, by the rules, has to be stuck in SM2 because it's cammed and before the end of the week will have vortec heads. I'll also be converting the front from coil springs to a transverse leaf spring.

[73STS]

Actually I don't see much discussion about course design.
Just some discusion of the abuses that course designers get.
A discussion on course design should start with the course design handbook available on the web (who has the link?).
Topics could include courses greater than the minimum distance so people can choose a line, how to make a box, use of cones as visual aids, and what makes a minimum cone count for a slalom (it's not 2 cones). Maybe some discussion as to what is a technical course, a speed maintenance course, a course that flows, a power course etc.

[cshodges]

Roger H. Johnson's Course Design Guide (http://www.houscca.com/solo/courses/coursedesign.zip)

Right-click and Save As. It's a zipped PDF file.