Why are the practice numbers so limited?

[formulagirl]

Question...why are the practice numbers (total entries) so limited? It isn't time and it isn't space. An event cut-off is between 200-300 cars yet only 80 entries for a practice?
They could easily add another group of 20 (the people that are on the wait list) and only increase the existing 4 groups size by five. How many laps do you really need for practice when a real event is only 3???
Wouldn't the clubs want the extra cash?
Just curious as to who holds the answers???

[frosty]

I'll take a crack at the answers, although a more seasoned driver will probably come and make corrections.

Basically, it is time. Only so many laps can be made in a day. The idea of a practice is explicitly to give drivers lots of laps. Some practices they might only get 8 while others might be 10 or 12. If 3 laps is all you're after, then the partially mis-named Championship events should fit the bill. You can treat them like a practice.

But if you are inexperienced like me, you need lots of laps in one session to get past learning the course and start learning about what the car is doing and make it do it better.

And to give you a better perspective on "how many laps do you need", at the last practice event I did (not official SD-R), I got about 20 or 30 laps on a very long course and I was still learning and figuring stuff out at the end. The answer is, I'll take however many I can get (but I'm not about to step on other people's toes or break my tiny piggy bank to do it).

[froggy47]

At the last SDR practice (on 1/1/06) I spoke with more than one person who was dissappointed with how many runs they got in. I think they got 6 or 7 maybe 8.

Various reasons, here's one. The practice run groups stop/start on the fly. You are working the top of the course and your relief is taking their time getting there (this was me waiting on relief). So by the time I get to the pits, hit the head, get the car in grid (car was ready) some of my color group are already lined up for run # 2. If I get directed to the "wrong" line it's 1/2 hour into my run time b4 I even get a first run! Fortunate for others, not so good for me. Maybe picking 1st run group would have been smart.

Add another 20 cars to that and you can see where it's going.

I am not complaining about the last practice, it's the luck of the draw on where you get sent to work & who relieves you. I did get more than 8 runs in eventually so it was a good practice for me.

Could we go more than 80, probably, but then you always have the chance of delays, breakdowns on course, oil spill/clean up etc.

I don't think it's about money for most of the clubs. It's about having a manageable size event.

For myself I like 80 ish with a "chance" to get in maybe 10 or 12 runs.

:D

PS Like Frosty said, you might be working on something where 3 or even 6 or 9 runs is not enough. Last practice I started working on left foot braking. Would 3 runs have done the trick? Not by a long shot! I barely had it figured out enough by the end of the day to try it at the following day's champ event with any chance at all of making it work.

[kb58]

That was probably me, getting 7 runs. I think you nailed it about where you're working and the timing of it all. Sometimes I sat in line a long time and began to wonder if I was in the right one or not. One time I got in the wrong line and quickly got another run which bothered people. My mistake, but the point is if we don't count my illegal run I'd really have only six runs. Six runs versus 20... it's hard to believe there's that big a difference just due to where we were working on course. And no I didn't spend any time working on the car, but I did make sure to show up to work on time.

[frosty]

That was probably me, getting 7 runs while others got up to 20. I think you nailed it about where you're working and the timing of it all. Sometimes I sat in line a long time and began to wonder if I was in the right one or not. One time I did get in the wrong line and quickly got another run, which bothered people. My bad, but the point is if I'd been in the "proper" line I would have really had only six runs. Six runs versus 20... there's something not right about that.

How the hell? There's something not right there, unless the ones with 20 got a ton of fun runs.

[zads]

...at the last practice event I did (not official SD-R), I got about 20 or 30 laps on a very long course...



Six runs versus 20... it's hard to believe there's that big a difference just due to where we were working on course.

I think you guys are referring to different events, that's why he's confused..

frosty was referring to a private practice event (~40 cars), rather than the public practice that kb58 is talking about.


as far as runs are considered, at the private practice, i got 16 runs.. tiring no doubt, but i'd take 16 more if i had the time for it.

[frosty]

frosty was referring to a private practice event (~40 cars), rather than the public practice that kb58 is talking about.


Yes, this was the "not official SD-R" practice I went to. It was on the 26th of March.

[RandyC]

It is a good question. But clubs are in a damned-if-do, damned-if-don't situation.

Keep in mind that under optimum conditions (which most practices are not!), you can get between 800-1000 runs in total. 1000 is optimistic. 800 is much closer to realistic, specially if there is worker change over downtime.

100 entrants then is 8 runs per entrant. Some entrants are used to practices where they got 12-15 runs, and they are not happy. Sure clubs want to do well financially, but really (it seems to me anyway) that is not enough of a reason. As long as a club is financually healthy, more money is little incentive. Unless maybe you belong to a "for profit" club. :)

So you take out a dart board and pick a reasonable number to limit to. When I run other practices (we just had a private one in Orange County last week)... we limit cars to around 40-50. And I like 40 better (though it can be tough having enough workers). Because we can get 30-50 runs in. I would rather spend all day at an autocross and get 40 runs... than all day and get 8 runs. That is just me.

[kb58]

Yes, this was the "not official SD-R" practice I went to. It was on the 26th of March.

It wasn't so much the number of runs involved, just the disparity between different cars and drivers. Good point about it being a different event, I didn't catch that, no problem. Okay, I feel better now.

[MX5bob]

The problem with have more than 70-80 entrants is the amount of down time between runs. Tires get cold, memory of how the car was behaving fades for some of us :D and becomes less worthwhile to spend the day on the event.

[RandyC]

The problem with have more than 70-80 entrants is the amount of down time between runs. Tires get cold, memory of how the car was behaving fades for some of us :D and becomes less worthwhile to spend the day on the event.

That can be solved with format though. Just divide into more run groups. But you still lose efficiency and in the end get less runs.

What we have learned is that run groups that are too large are problematic. That includes the popular open run group practice format (work one group, run the rest of the day) where there are 80 or more entrants. In that format, you could have 60 cars in grid and witha 30 second interval, that is 30 minutes between each run.

I would rather have dedicated run groups that were smaller and get the same number of runs in a 90 minute period (for larger numbers of entrants).

[emotepix]

Anybody thought of hiring workers in, say, half day shifts? Like the racetrack racers do? Wouldn't mind paying more to get more runs in without having to work when I'm trying to tune my car... (practice days only, of course).

[frosty]

I don't think that the cost/benefit of hiring course workers would be enough. With 80 entrants, there is some down time for people not running.

If you hire people, you have to deal with:
- finding people
- paying them
- dealing with flakes who don't really work but demand their paycheck
- dealing with safty training (possibly as often as each event; we could have an entirely new crew each event)

Where we could get the same efficiency and lower cost by:
- doing hot swaps
- being organized (this one seems harder in practice than it sounds)

[froggy47]

That was probably me, getting 7 runs. I think you nailed it about where you're working and the timing of it all. Sometimes I sat in line a long time and began to wonder if I was in the right one or not. One time I got in the wrong line and quickly got another run which bothered people. My mistake, but the point is if we don't count my illegal run I'd really have only six runs. Six runs versus 20... it's hard to believe there's that big a difference just due to where we were working on course. And no I didn't spend any time working on the car, but I did make sure to show up to work on time.

If there are only 5 or 6 cars at the very beginning of the group (while the long hike people are still trickling in) those 5 or 6 can rip thru quite a few runs, yes?
:)

[RandyC]

Biggest issue with hiring people is none of the above. It is liability.

I did consider it. I know the exotic car autox people hire guys.

[vantage]

Agree with Randy.

I think practices should be even smaller and limited to 60 entrants. This way, you might have to reserve dates where certain club members get priority registration, like CSCC does, to make the situation a bit more fair for everyone.

From my perspective, I don't see the point of waiting and working all day for a 6 run practice. I would rather go to fewer practices, but have them be of very high quality. At least 12 runs, but nothing wrong with having 20 or more. Charge a bit more if needed. $75 is not unreasonable if you get to run all day and become exhausted from driving.

Of course, I realize it's a balancing act, and can't complain too much about Saturday's SCNAX event with 80 entrants.

[froggy47]

What we have learned is that run groups that are too large are problematic. That includes the popular open run group practice format (work one group, run the rest of the day) where there are 80 or more entrants. In that format, you could have 60 cars in grid and witha 30 second interval, that is 30 minutes between each run.

What advantage is there (if any) to the work once, run the rest of the time?

):)

[woodrufj]

What advantage is there (if any) to the work once, run the rest of the time?

):)
If its a low number of people (60) you can run and take breaks (to adjust settings) any time you want. An good set up for true Test & Tune. Its also simple on an organizer.

But as the number of drivers go up, it gets more and more tedious to get runs.

80people x 12runs is an LA standard. S.D. mixes it up a lot, but 120people x 8 runs is common. 60 x 16 has been done. Prices and work lenghts go up and worker density goes down as you reduce numbers. Technicaly you could get away with 480x2 and 20 x 48, but its all about the balance.

Don't forget there are a few starving students out there that will work your assignement for a paid entry.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[frosty]

Don't forget there are a few starving students out there that will work your assignement for a paid entry.


There are? I did not know of this. Maybe said starving students should be making this known (... or maybe I should be one of them, not sure).

[raptor22]

Hey, I just got an RX-7, and I've been wanting to, basically, have some fun with it. I've been thinking autoX would be a good outlet, but it is pricey (I'm 18).

I'm completely new to this, but working for a paid entry sounds good to me.

619-977-0720

--Alex

[cshodges]

It is pricey, but not in the ways you're thinking. If you do it a lot, join the SCCA, and the discount pays for itself. ($25 entry v. $35 entry per event).

Tires are where I'm finding the big expense. That's assuming you stay stock and don't modify the car.

Another option is to join a club and become an active volunteer. Most of the local clubs have discounted fees for active members at events they host. This usually involves showing up early to set up the course, working extra run groups when we're short on workers, and/or staying late and helping tear down the course and pack the trailer.

[RickRacer]

As has been stated, CalClub clubs use mainly two formats. 80 entries with 4 groups, work once, run the rest of the time. Gives more time for major adjustments, number of runs a person gets can vary a lot. Or 60 entries, 4 run groups but you run both morning and afternoon, 6 runs each time. You work once for two consecutive groups. Since groups are based on number of runs per person, not time, you can stop and do minor adjustments as long as you don't over do it. Also there is a one group down time when you are not working or running to do more major adjustments. I prefer this method because there is less time between runs. There is likely to be more 2 day practices up in CalClub since we have 3 places to run now which will provide many more opportunities to run.

[cshodges]

I don't have a basement. I have a raised foundation. I bet he spends a lot of money on matches. :eek:

[barkingspyder]

I don't have a basement. I have a raised foundation. I bet he spends a lot of money on matches. :eek:

And I'd hate to see his fire insurance rates....

[raptor22]

lol, That's freaking insane

Seriously, for the moment I don't really want to compete. I know I will at some point, but I want to better learn the limits of my car before I go drive some windy roads. The cost of tires should be pretty negligible unless I start doing it on a regular basis.

But right now, I just don't have any money.

As far as mods, the car is already pretty well done-up. Here's the list of stuff if came with for $3500:

Rebuilt engine
New tranny
New alternator
New tires
Street porting
Race exhaust
K&N intake
"Lowering" coil springs
Tokico shocks
Steel brake lines

--Alex

[emotepix]

Frosty
Seems like all the people at all the racetracks have it wrong, then?

[wolfgang]

lol, That's freaking insane

Seriously, for the moment I don't really want to compete. I know I will at some point, but I want to better learn the limits of my car before I go drive some windy roads. The cost of tires should be pretty negligible unless I start doing it on a regular basis.

But right now, I just don't have any money.

As far as mods, the car is already pretty well done-up. Here's the list of stuff if came with for $3500:

Rebuilt engine
New tranny
New alternator
New tires
Street porting
Race exhaust
K&N intake
"Lowering" coil springs
Tokico shocks
Steel brake lines

--Alex

Well, all that is neat stuff, but unfortunately takes you out of the stock class, which can get very expensive if you want to be competitive. But you can still have a lot of fun if you keep things in perspective while getting most of the hot Roding out of your system and keep you out of trouble.

:D

[frosty]

Frosty
Seems like all the people at all the racetracks have it wrong, then?

Have what wrong?

[mievil]

Have what wrong?


I believe he/she is speaking of the cost efficiency post you made earlier.

I believe comparing the "efficiency" of how a track does their events to how a small autox club does things is a little "apples to oranges."


Seems like all the people at all the racetracks have it wrong, then?

Don't forget that while people most often volunteer to work all day at a track event, it also costs a lot more to enter said track event than it does to enter a local autox event, allowing a little more cash to be spent on workers, if any cash is spent at all. As well as the fact that most of the workers at a track event are certified, requiring a little more of an incentive to work all day, such as cash, or track certificates or whatever. It's going to be hard to find people willing to work all day at an event such as a local autox, with no possibility of running at all. Seat time is the biggest benefit to be had hear. You work one or two shifts (not all day which could get tiring for most), and the reward is being able to flog your car for another one or two shifts.

Frosty didn't say that the people at track events have it wrong, he was just saying what it's like at a smaller local event, which was what the topic is about. :)

[RandyC]

I will mention it again. Liability. You just can't legally hire people to work a course as a club....Not without going through some hoops that I really doubt we want to go through. A racetrack is a much larger organization with a payroll and the ability to use temp agencies, etc.

Or we would be picking up our course workers hanging out at the local Home Depot.

Anyone care to guess what workmans compensation insurance would be for a course worker? :)

[frosty]

Frosty didn't say that the people at track events have it wrong, he was just saying what it's like at a smaller local event, which was what the topic is about. :)

What he said.

[frosty]

Anyone care to guess what workmans compensation insurance would be for a course worker? :)

I bet it's free for the ones at Home Depot. :rolleyes:

[RandyC]

I bet it's free for the ones at Home Depot. :rolleyes:
Exactly. And it was something we seriously considered. But...imagine if someone was hurt while working the course. Anyone want to be the person responsible for hiring an undocumented worker?

Not me!

So if you rule out the illegal ways... what other paths are there? Ones that make sense? I think there are none, except find someone to work for you individually.

I am always willing to pay someone's entry in return for working my group at a practice.

[RickRacer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cshodges
Tires are where I'm finding the big expense.



Scott cares about this more than anyone I have EVER seen!




1 SET kart tires: $180. 2 or 3 sets a season. :D

[frosty]

1 SET kart tires: $180. 2 or 3 sets a season. :D

Maybe I should look into this... if I wasn't so tall that I'd probably roll it. Well, then there's the image of you having hopped out because you stalled it and push-starting it before the next car caught up to you.

[RandyC]

National Champion F125, Tom Harrington. 6'4" if he stoops a little. His head stuck out of his MR2 when he used to run that.

[frosty]

National Champion F125, Tom Harrington. 6'4" if he stoops a little. His head stuck out of his MR2 when he used to run that.

Hmm... how much do these karts cost? I need something that can do circles around an elise.

[RandyC]

It can run circles around anything else here... except maybe B-MOD and A-MOD.

About $3000.

[cshodges]

Used, right? I hear they have other maintenance issues, too.

[RandyC]

Used. The have maintenance issues, just like a lawnmower does. How much wrenching you do is still up to you.

You have to make sure nuts and bolts are tight. Just like I have to with my Elise.

You have to check the brakes and adjust the bias occasionally.

There is some engine maintenance required, but rebuilding the top end can be done in one night and you may not have to do it for years.

Tires are normally mounted at home by yourself. So no mounting fees.

While we are listing the reasons, a number of these are the same good reasons for a dedicated racing car, like almost any mod or prepared class. In the end, it can be cheaper to run mod or prepared. Tires can be cheaper too.

1. No insurance. It is a track only vehicle.
2. Easy to haul. Fits in many vans or trucks or a small trailer.
3. Easy to work on. Simple.
4. Parts are insanely cheap compared to cars.
5. Extra wheels are like $30 each.
6. Minimum weights in class so no reason to buy carbon fiber or titanium stuff.
7. Storage is minimal.
8. You can drive a street car without any concern for how competitively classed that street car is. Heck, it can be out of tune, have full A/C, wrong size rims, etc. It does not matter.
9. Track days for karts cost $20-40 for the entire day... and you can get more track time in than you will ever want.
10. An open wheeled vehicle can teach you a lot about vehicle dynamics.

[raptor22]

3 sets per year? I have been corner working at the kart races in qualcomm, and the most competitive guys go through a set every day.

They are crazy fast, though. The drivers wear rib protectors to protect themselves from the g laoding.

--Alex

[RandyC]

3 sets per year? I have been corner working at the kart races in qualcomm, and the most competitive guys go through a set every day.

They are crazy fast, though. The drivers wear rib protectors to protect themselves from the g laoding.

--Alex
Autocross karts are also crazy fast, and we also wear rib vests to protect our ribs. But a 3 run day is about 180 seconds of tire wear. If you average one championship event a month, that is 36 minutes in one year. Add in some practice days (6 per year) at 12 runs per day, is another 72 minutes of tire wear. Total tire wear then is 84 minutes. If you go through 3 sets of tires, that is a new set every 28 minutes of run time.

How much time do the guys doing the kart racing spend each weekend?

:)

If any of the autocross cars raced wheel to wheel on a track all weekend, they would also use a set each day. Heck, we have gone through a set in a weekend as it is in our car at autocrosses.