Is there any interest in Time/Speed/Distance Rally?

[RandyC]

I did a TSD Gimmick Rally about 20 years ago with a local autocrosser in our MR2s. It as fun. So last weekend I signed up and did one with the local British Car Club and actually came in first place. :) It was fun. I guess they do it every year but it is limited to British Cars and I think a few of them were not thrilled that "non-members" won the whole thing... they would not let me take the first place trophy. haha....

Anyway.... it was a good time. Driving. Back country roads. Puzzles. And lunch. And being with other car people. All good.

For those that don't know what a TSD Gimmick Rally is, let me give you a quick rundown. Entrants need to be licensed drivers in a street legal car. Suggest that you arrive with a full tank and empty bladder. What follows is just examples, not all rallys are run the same. There are differences.

There is a meeting point where the cars assemble, usually an empty parking lot. You are assigned a sequence number and a sheet of "instructions." You may also be given a sealed envelope with the instructions to not open it. The envelope may contain the final stop point in case you were to become hopelessly lost, but opening it and reading it means you are disqualified from winning.

Cars are released about 2 minutes apart. That tends to make it so you are not in a train following each other. And really, people will make mistakes so you don't want to blindly follow anyone. But it is nice after not seeing another entrant for some time and wondering if you are even in the right area, to spy another car and at least if you are lost, there is someone else lost too. :)

You follow the directions and they can be quite plain, such as "Take the next right at the light" or they can be tricky... "Turn left on to the street with the baseball monks"... and you will be wondering what the heck that means.... until you see FRIARS road.

The instruction sheet will also ask you questions you need to answer. Such as "how many blue mailboxes do you see?" or "what is the name of the quarry on your left?" and these are all things that are obvious and you will see along the way.

The instruction sheet will also note your starting time and your starting odometer reading.

The event creator(s) will have pre-driven the course (more than once!) and will know how many miles it is and how long it should take.

There can be multiple check points or a single end check point. At the checkpoint(s), your time is checked. At the end checkpoint, your miles are noted down.

Note that the time is based on you following the speedlimit, so speeding is discouraged on public roads.

You get a point for each correct answer. You subtract points for each mile being off the perfect lap. You subtract points for minutes you are too late or too early. More competitive rallies count down to the second and there is a class for cars with computers. Probably would not be a bad idea to have a GPS n the car. I know in my first rally, I could not drive the speed limit so I eventually gave up trying to win. And I wonder about a rally that had all the elements except for the time part. But I can see the time part being in there for liability reasons. Hmmm....

Most rallies area about 2 hours in time and end at a final checkpoint that is a restaurant to eat at. There winners are determined and people can talk about who did what and laugh or bitch about the clues, etc.

Normally groups only charge something like $10 to cover the trophies.

These are fun and I was thinking of maybe putting one together, but it is also a lot of work to organize (kinda like an autocross) and it would work better if a small group of us decided we wanted to do this through SCCA (CalClub has an active group doing this) and then we can share the work.

The event creator has to go out and map the planned course. Determine the clues and questions. Drive it again at speed to determine miles and time. Someone has to organize the start and then someone has to be there at the finish to wait for everyone.

Events should be limited to maybe 20 cars. More than that and it takes too long for the start and finish. At 20 cars that is a 40 minute interval so.

Routes for example could go east county... out of El Cajon/La Mesa through the back country, Crest, etc. Or north county like Olivenheim and RSF. Or south bay from Coronado to Chula Vista. You want a mix of roads, mostly two lane back country roads with some signs.

Anyway... anyone? Thoughts? Interest? Crickets?

[RandyC]

Well, I would be happy to organize the first one with some help in administration. We can select a weekend date that does not conflict with autocrossing and just do it and see how many people want to show up.

[RandyC]

I like the SCCA's description of the "chess on wheels" exactly.

Like I said, I am not a big fan of the timing part... and I personally have less interest in trying to arrive at a checkpoint down to the second. I just want to drive, solve puzzles, and eat lunch. :)

Mainly an excuse... the thing I love about doing this, is not only is it a blast to drive the back country, but you often end up going places you otherwise would never go to. You may see areas of our county you have never seen. And to me, that is cool.

[rrunner68]

Sounds like fun. I'd play.

[Sebastian R.]

Shauna and used to do these all the time before we got hardcore into autocrossing. I can say they were fun in hindsight, but there were a couple of events that had me thinking I was going to need a good divorce attorney!:p

One word of advice...If you are driving just do what the navigator says (don't second guess) and hit the trip odometer reset a lot. If you are a navigator, be sure about your instructions (even if they are wrong!).

[jeffreyf]

My wife and I have done a bunch of these. We've even planned and been in charge of several. They are tons of fun. Lots of jokes to play on the participants. Example: Somewhere in the middle of the course, there are a group of people selling maps to participants if they are interested. Buy a map for a buck (goes for food at the end). Participant buys map, discovers he's been had (map is for New Orleans).

To avoid divorces, we drew names, so you might end up with two women in one car, or one guy and someone elses wife in another car (well, that may cause a divorce as well).

I will be more than happy to help plan one of these. They are an absolute blast.

Jeff

[windsway]

We're in.

[SVTfocus]

I did one of these about 8 years ago in the Detroit region and came in dead last cause I got lost... I blame it on my co-driver, but only because he's not here to dispute it. :) Maybe it's time to try again.

[Andrew]

Definitely interested.

If this is something that we want to try to set up quickly to gauge interest in without a lot of investment in time, we might be able to use the BCC rally route Randy ran, assuming Randy still has the route notes.

And if Randy promises never to run a BCC rally again, they might give us some of their old rally routes, too! :D

[RandyC]

:)

I did think we could just redo the same one I just ran, and yes I did save the notes and I think there are a few places we could improve on it.

So just need to figure out who is doing what and what the date is.

[nalbar]

Hey everyone, Randy wants to use the course he JUST WON!

:rock2:


Maybe we can get Jeff K to enter. We all want to see what he can do out of the Sprite. Rumor is that his results are all car and he can't actually drive. I actually saw him picking his nose during one of his runs on Sunday, that's how easy his car is to drive. Let's see, Jeff!


nalbar

[RandyC]

ha...

The trade off is this. I will use the same course, but I will not enter. I will help set this up, make sure it works ok... help register and get the cars ready and be there at the finish waiting for you.

My reward? Someone else set up the next one! I have some ideas about routes.

[RandyC]

What about Saturday Feb 27th?

[Andrew]

How many people are needed to work an event?

* Course designer
* Registration / start
* Checkpoints
* Finish

There's a lot of overlap there. Start and finish can be covered by the same people. Course designer, obviously, works the event.

Can it be handled by 3 - 5 people? If so, do we have volunteers? Personally, I would want to run the first event, not work it.

And 27 Feb works for me.

[jeffreyf]

I've done it with 8 workers. Just depends on how many checkpoints you want on the course. The location of the check points is, of course, top secret. You win by completing not only the entire course closest to the predicted time, but you also must hit each checkpoint as close to the predicted time as possible, and you don't know where the checkpoint are, so you can't afford to speed. These are tough but really fun. And yes they can take effort to plan and execute, but they are worth the effort in my experience.

[RandyC]

You really only need a couple people for an event with one checkpoint. Assuming someone has already done the front end work, created a route. Checked it. Made copies of the clue sheets. Arrange a date and time.

Then day of the event.

1. Register cars. Take money (if we do). Collect cell phone number. Assign sequence numbers. Hold 5 minute drivers meeting to go over rules.

2. Starter. Probably a separate person in case the person doing registration is busy with late sign ups. Starter lists time and odometer readings and releases cars on schedule.

3. Once number of registrants is known, call restaurant to give them a head count.

4. Drive to restaurant (in this case the final checkpoint) and arrange some sort of sign. Set up to receive entrants.

5. As entrants arrive, give out official arrival times. Collect sheets with answers, final odometer reading and given time.

6. As soon as possible, start figuring out points.

7. Award trophy positions.

So really this could all be done by one person. It would be helpful for a couple. I think in this pne event, I could do it all by myself.

[woodrufj]

Can't the check points be unmanned? I've never done one, but I thought at the low level Rallys the navi jumps out of the car, signs the check point sheet and time, then jumps back in and they're off.

I've done it with 8 workers. Just depends on how many checkpoints you want on the course. The location of the check points is, of course, top secret. You win by completing not only the entire course closest to the predicted time, but you also must hit each checkpoint as close to the predicted time as possible, and you don't know where the checkpoint are, so you can't afford to speed. These are tough but really fun. And yes they can take effort to plan and execute, but they are worth the effort in my experience.

Why does the starter/finisher need to know the odometer? Isn't it all about arival times?

2. Starter. Probably a separate person in case the person doing registration is busy with late sign ups. Starter lists time and odometer readings and releases cars on schedule.

Jay W

[jeffreyf]

You record the mileage driven. Even if you get there on time, it is a deduction if you went off course or got lost. To win, you must drive the right number of miles (to the 10th), get there in the right time (to the closest second) and answer correctly all of the questions. Clues to the correct answers appear along the course and you will not be able to answer the questions if you don't follow the precise course.

Computers don't help (you don't know your destination or location of the check points). Fast cars don't help as the target speed is the same or less than the speed limit. Logic doesn't help as there are many detractors to foil the logical driver. Temper doesn't help, you will most surely miss a clue and get lost. Following the guy in front of you won't help as he is likely lost.
Ignoring your navigator is a mistake. If you have a big ego, you are at a disadvantage. You may get beaten by someone as old as Randy Chase.

And yes, in my experience, it does take a great deal of time to plan one of these and drive the route many times before developing the check points, times, mileages, and questions. It does take several people to put this on without it being a clusterf**k. But it is really fun!

[RandyC]

lol... the one advantage I had in the British Car Club one... I think I was the youngest person there. lol

That one was ran really low key... as in they ignored 10ths of a mile (and not all cars have those anyway) and they ignored seconds in time. Closest minute was enough. Basically a very low keyed competition. More about friends and driving and the puzzle than winning. I think that is why they also did not have any checkpoints other than the finish.

Agreed with Jeff that to do this well, a good amount of effort happens in the front. Bad clues suck. And those that lack imagination are not as good. Plus you want the right roads. Not freeways. Not dirt roads. Not a road like Ardath or Mission Beach where traffic has more to do with your times than anything else.

So to start this off, I will plan the route and man the start and finish.

Plan on about a 8:00am arrival. First car out at 9:00am. Lunch by 11:00am or later depending on your sequence and how many cars show up. We should limit the car numbers though... but let's see how much interest there is.

[jeffreyf]

I'll be happy to pitch in on the work. These are so much fun that everyone should try them at least once. So Randy and I can drive on the second one SCNAX puts on.

Jeff

[nalbar]

Can we put it off a little to give time to organize?

It's our first one.


nalbar

[RandyC]

Normally I would agree Warren, but this one is nice because it needs very little organization. And will ease us into the idea.

I looked at my calendar and it gets busy in March and April with national events.

One open issue is if we can use the umbrella of SCCA or are we just a rogue group? I think it would be good for someone like Warren to find out what we need to do, in order to have an official sanction.

[jeffreyf]

I probably don't have standing here, since I don't have a real job, but it does seem a little short-fused to me. Also, in Feb, there is always the chance of a rain out. These things are the most fun on nice days with the top down. I lean towards the: If we want to do it, lets do it right.

Having whined about that, we are several steps ahead with Randy already having a pre-planned route.

[RandyC]

So if we scheduled it 4 months from now... what exactly would we do different?

[jeffreyf]

Avoid the rain, for sure. Of course I stand ready to be pummeled if Feb 27 turns out to be a glorious, sunny, warm day.

I'm just a gomer. Whatever the decision makers decide as to date, I'll jump in with both feet to help pull it off.

Jeff

[RandyC]

One other point, the longer we wait the more the previous clues become suspect. Not a big deal, but that counters your rain argument. :)

Why not do this, we plan on that date in February. We compile a list of people that want to do this. San Diego's weather normally does not change that fast...in 3 weeks we will know if the weather is bad and if it is, we postpone the date. Nothing really lost doing that. If it is good, we proceed. The beauty of this is we do not have to rent anything or commit to anything.

:shift:

[Andrew]

These things are the most fun on nice days with the top down.

While I agree with this statement, I'm planning on running in a Passat wagon with the kid in the back. Fun (I hope) for the whole family!

[jeffreyf]

Randy,

As I said earlier, I am not one of the SCNAX leaders. If you all decide to do this in Feb, I will be more than happy to pitch in.

As Andrew said, these can also be great family events. You can have just as much fun in your Buick Roadmaster Wagon full of kids. :eek:

[jeffreyf]

No objection on my part. Randy can email me the route and questions and I can run it a couple of times to see if there are any tweaks I might recommend. That's the hard part. The easy part is determining the checkpoints and number of volunteer workers (we already have Randy and me). There are still a lot of details to work out, but we should be able to get it all done without too great a risk of a cluster#*#*#.

I concur that 20 cars is about right. Keep in mind that means a minimum of 40 people for lunch, likely a few more with kids.

Whoever is the King of SCNAX, make a command decision.

[woodrufj]

One open issue is if we can use the umbrella of SCCA or are we just a rogue group? I think it would be good for someone like Warren to find out what we need to do, in order to have an official sanction.
pmack@scca.com

Pego; she's the RallyX/Road Rally contact. I don't know how much the fees are, but I do know the Navi is considered a 'Passenger' when it comes to temp SCCA memberships. Might run into kid issues if they're in the car.

Jenne English up in LA runs those first friday night rallies that Seb mentioned. She'd probably offer 'SCCA' advice.

Jay W


Jay W

[RandyC]

Giving this serious thought again for Saturday July 2nd. But not through SCCA. Not formal. Just a group of buddies out for a drive. Any interest?

[Andrew]

Giving this serious thought again for Saturday July 2nd. But not through SCCA. Not formal. Just a group of buddies out for a drive. Any interest?

Interest, yes. Ability to make that date, no. Sunday the 3rd might work for me.

[kjchristopher]

yep

[mievil]

I'd be interested if this still hasn't happened. The other one's i've seen required an actual odometer calibration deal where everyone drove the same distance, and got a handicap or multiplication factor at the end to offset things like tire size or whatever.

Also, the CitySolve thing is very similar and a lot of fun, but it's a foot race. You go and take pictures at each location to prove you were there. At the end, they scroll through your pics to make sure that you actually went everywhere. There were two optional clues to add extra points, and you only had to complete 9 out of 10, so that was different. Also, that was strictly time based which you have to avoid in a car event.

Something we were thinking would add to the fun would be to do events at each stop. Something like stop at a bowling alley and bowl a strike, or get one hand painted at a spa or something. We had to do twister as a team on one stop. That would add fun to the event, and you could talk it over with the places you chose and get them involved as it adds exposure to their company and future business, but it may add a couple bucks to the entry. Sort of like the Amazing Race.

Just a few ideas if you haven't done it yet, or were thinking of doing one in the future. The events part was a little extreme, however after we did CitySolve, we thought it would add a dimension of fun to the event that we didn't get.