Sound Violation

[jwisjw]

Our ST civic got multiple of sound violations this weekend.

Here are the events that we've ran in the past.

3/15 - no readings
SD tour - n/a (very cold, wet and cloudy like this weekend)
5/17 - no readings
7/12 - 90.9
8/2 - no readings
10/4 - 90.4 and 90.1
11/8 - no readings
11/22 - 91.9, 90.5, 91.4, 91.2, 91.3 and 91.7

This weekend 95db...

Same exact setup, our muffler extension is only for SD, so it does not get used often and the tip is turnable but it has been pointed down and not touched for the past year of running in SD.

Who else was having problems this weekend with sound that normally don't?

Jeff W - 665
Nicole N - 566

[oinojo]

opening a can of worms Jeff...:popcorn:

I give up on the matter and will try to find a compromise with weight and sound.

[jwisjw]

opening a can of worms Jeff...:popcorn:

I give up on the matter and will try to find a compromise with weight and sound.

It is not like i was treading on thin ice and have broken sound violations in the past with this setup.

I'm very disappointed as to why this has happened. I would hate to have to fix a problem that really doesn't exsist. If I haven't broken sound with this setup, why now?

[jwisjw]

FWIW, the mufflers are repackable and were packed this year, the exhaust has maybe 2k -3k miles on it max.

[nalbar]

Here we go.

LOTS of people had 'trouble', if you define 'trouble' as not being able to stay within the rules.

Sundays location was strict, there is no doubt about that. However, that is well within the preview of the event chair. Plus there was cloud cover.

I look at the previous soundings you got and while you don't technically have any violations, attempting to live within the 90-92 range is just asking for trouble, for the very simple reason that eventually you will get multiple violations when the location is stricter. We in San Diego see this over and over... "But we never went over 92 before, why now?"

No sympathy Jeff and Nicole. Your attempt to gain one HP in trade of 3 db is silly. I would remind you that Leslie and Ken (and in the past, Jeff) never violate our sound, and they are what is called....fast. It's a decision YOU have made.



nalbar

[oinojo]

true... i had the same issue after the tour this year. I never had issues with sound until i started noticing elevated and angled positionings of the meter.

I never had issues on the East lot as well even when the meter was facing the K-Rails (potential sound bounce).

Here is the side most people don't understand. My exhaust setup weighs 7lbs. While most aftermarket setups (HKS, Greddy, Magnaflow, Thermal) weight 28-35lbs. The difference in a lightweight car with only 100hp/90tq is TREMENDOUS.

Therefore, i am sorry if i offend anyone with sound violations. I will try my best to keep myself and the region happy by keeping things quiet yet lightweight. I know with the tour coming up, i would hate to be violating sound OR having a weight penalty with such a heavy system. I thought i had this setup optimized for San Diego. Apparently i need to make some changes.

See you guys in 2010!

-The loud guy-

[nalbar]

Here is the side most people don't understand. My exhaust setup weighs 7lbs. While most aftermarket setups (HKS, Greddy, Magnaflow, Thermal) weight 28-35lbs. The difference in a lightweight car with only 100hp/90tq is TREMENDOUS.



Why not set your car up like Ken has it? It works for him. Am I missing something? It's something I have been curious about since your issues after the Tour.

Jon, I was specifically told by a witness on course that your issue was intake. I have no idea if he was right, but he was insistent.

nalbar

[RandyC]

On the other hand, it does indeed suck (and may be inherent in the technology and method) that it can vary so much.

The Noble is near 90-91db with stock exhausts, but can read much lower on some days.

[oinojo]

Why not set your car up like Ken has it? It works for him. Am I missing something? It's something I have been curious about since your issues after the Tour.

nalbar

Thats the thing... Kens car has the same setup. I know because i helped him with it.

I am going to add a SuperTrapp Disc Adapter to the end of my exhaust. It should essentially act like a SuperTrapp Muffler that Sebastien has been running. He has always been in the 80's range for sound. Even though his car sounds exactly the same as my car from a spectators view. It must be the frequency/resonance from the discs.

Im not trying to start any new arguement. I WILL make a greater change to better suit the region and my desire to stay competetive.

[merlotmx5]

IMHO, it is a valid can of worms.

If, at any given event, an unusually high number of cars are "violating" sound (especially cars that are not usual offenders), I think it is our (region's/event chair's) responsibility to assess the entire situation instead of just blanket DSQing people.

If we are going to hold the participants accountable for complying with sound, then we should hold ourselves (region) accountable for ensuring that the sound meter is placed in a suitable location.

In Scott L's defense he said he went back out and measured to double check. Not being an engineer or understanding all the intricacies of sound, I find myself wondering if distance is not the only thing we need to take into consideration when attempting to comply with sound meter placement (incline, etc). It seems this is not the first event we have had an increase in sounds issues when the meter has been placed in that area.

Possibly a tiresome subject but important. Thoughts on how we can be better at meter placement or more proactive should a similar scenario arise again?

[oinojo]

Why not set your car up like Ken has it? It works for him. Am I missing something? It's something I have been curious about since your issues after the Tour.

Jon, I was specifically told by a witness on course that your issue was intake. I have no idea if he was right, but he was insistent.

nalbar

Oh. You mean my stock intake that i stuffed with a rag including the paper filter thats in there? Yeah that killed a lot of power and also made the car .5 DB louder from my previous run with my short ram intake. :)

Not sure how thats possible. I went through my exhaust setup and found no leaks as well.

[merlotmx5]

No sympathy Jeff and Nicole. Your attempt to gain one HP in trade of 3 db is silly. I would remind you that Leslie and Ken (and in the past, Jeff) never violate our sound, and they are what is called....fast. It's a decision YOU have made.
nalbar

Geez, Warren. Someone steal your bagel this morning? :)

Ken has had issues with sounds many times in San Diego(even at a SCNAX event when I had to personally deliver his reading). It's not really fair to say someone is attempting to skirt sound when they have attempted to comply with many different set-ups. I can imagine it is really hard to figure out a compliant set-up when the readings vary vastly from event to event. Kind of like trying to pin the tale on the donkey, blindfolded.

[RandyC]

Sometimes intake noise is the source of the problem.

edit to note Warren already mentioned that
I know it was an issue before on the other Civic.

[nalbar]

What we have is different mindsets.

I saw Scott walking by with one of the dreaded slips and said 'another one?' and he said 'we have to WARN them so they will NOT BE SURPRISED WHEN THEY GET A VIOLATION'.

That is one of the mindsets; it is a courtesy (our rules do NOT require an 'on the spot' notice between 90 and 93) that the Region does to cover participants and the regions a$$es. The Region won't be accused (yet we still are) of not telling anyone someone they are close, the participant gets a warning.

The other mindset;

Jeff admits in his original post he has had NINE warnings since June. NINE! They had SIX two weeks ago! Yet he is surprised at getting violations the next event. If you look closely his violations were getting worse and worse. He considers those notes a pass, not a warning.

We consider them a warning.

So yes Katy, no sympathy.

Katy, we do have a system for accountability in the sound locations. He is called the Event Chair, with backup from the Sound Chair. Further accountability is in our Sup Reg, which spell out the requirements quite clearly. The Committee spends more time on sound issues than any other issue. More proposed changes to our rules are made about sound than any other issue. Most proposals are to make the rules STRICTER. An interesting thing is that as a person spends more time with the Committee they have a tendency to get less forgiving of violations (I am an example of this).


nalbar

[froggy47]

On a more general note, I was talking to a couple of the BMW guys that put on their event on Sat. & the subject of sound (at the Q) came up.

It was mentioned that the publication of sound violations on any forum (unless it's tightly controlled "member only forum") is probably not a really smart thing to do as any grumpy old (not a motorsports fan) bag could access the (self published) info & do some serious damage with it to our events.

Just sayin.

:shift:

[jwisjw]

Jeff admits in his original post he has had NINE warnings since June. NINE! They had SIX two weeks ago! Yet he is surprised at getting violations the next event. If you look closely his violations were getting worse and worse. He considers those notes a pass, not a warning.

nalbar

I was not warned AT ALL 2 weeks ago, either was Jon.

How do you suggest I try to comply if doesn't pass sound less then 4% of the runs out of 80+ runs? You make it sound like we don't do our best to comply but if you want me to cheat the system by turning my exhaust tip from now on just to avoid sound, I guess I will have to do that. This is bigger then just turning my exhaust tip away from the sound meter in my opinnion.

[RandyC]

On a more general note, I was talking to a couple of the BMW guys that put on their event on Sat. & the subject of sound (at the Q) came up.

It was mentioned that the publication of sound violations on any forum (unless it's tightly controlled "member only forum") is probably not a really smart thing to do as any grumpy old (not a motorsports fan) bag could access the (self published) info & do some serious damage with it to our events.


On the other hand, our arbitrary sound regulations do not match the stadium requirements anyway, so if we say someone violated OUR regulations, than what difference does that make?

p.s. I would just install or turn the tips. :)

Just The Tip Racing

p.p.s. The more time I spent with the committee, the more I felt that we were missing the big picture...

[nalbar]

I was not warned AT ALL 2 weeks ago, either was Jon.



The rule;
------
6.3 POLICY FOR READINGS BETWEEN 91.0 AND 93.0 dBA
Notification to drivers of vehicles with readings of 91.0 to 93.0 dBA shall be made as soon as
possible, preferably in writing on the day of the occurrence.
-----

'preferably'.

Jeff, my point is simply that when you run some 90's and above you should not be surprised that you eventually get a violation. Those of us involved in this for years have seen the same stuff happen over and over (and with Jon six months ago). We suddenly get a stricter location and people who were close suddenly violate. It happened to the all stars last year. The course (meaning where a particular car hits a particular RPM), lines up with a stricter location and 'BOOM'.

It's why any consistent 90+ should be taken as something that needs to be fixed. Because you do not know where it will be next time. Unless that 90+ was like yesterday, an obvious 'hard' location.

nalbar

[nalbar]

On a more general note, I was talking to a couple of the BMW guys that put on their event on Sat. & the subject of sound (at the Q) came up.

It was mentioned that the publication of sound violations on any forum (unless it's tightly controlled "member only forum") is probably not a really smart thing to do as any grumpy old (not a motorsports fan) bag could access the (self published) info & do some serious damage with it to our events.

Just sayin.

:shift:

Our strength is our transparency. We have nothing to hide, and we are showing that we actually enforce our rules (and discuss them). And that we care.

Contrary to what BMW believes, this has worked to our advantage in the past. It's the other clubs (BMW, Porsche, KART) that should do what we do. Because they do not, they are vulnerable.

Once again; the Committee spends a LOT of time on sound. I doubt you could come up with something we have not already discussed, or tried to pass a rule on (including rotating tips).




nalbar

[jwisjw]

The rule;
------
6.3 POLICY FOR READINGS BETWEEN 91.0 AND 93.0 dBA
Notification to drivers of vehicles with readings of 91.0 to 93.0 dBA shall be made as soon as
possible, preferably in writing on the day of the occurrence.
-----

'preferably'.

Jeff, my point is simply that when you run some 90's and above you should not be surprised that you eventually get a violation. Those of us involved in this for years have seen the same stuff happen over and over (and with Jon six months ago). We suddenly get a stricter location and people who were close suddenly violate. It happened to the all stars last year. The course (meaning where a particular car hits a particular RPM), lines up with a stricter location and 'BOOM'.

It's why any consistent 90+ should be taken as something that needs to be fixed. Because you do not know where it will be next time. Unless that 90+ was like yesterday, an obvious 'hard' location.

nalbar

I wonder what my DB's would be like in these obvious hard locations if the courses were to comply with the scca rule book. Myself along with other ST'ers were going 60+ mph through corners and on the straights (going up the hill). I exited the last slalom cone, I was going 50 mph. When I passed the sound meter, I was already going 65+ mph (whatever my no rev limiting car does). Why punish us when you set us up for failure?

All i really want is consistency, I thought I was fine all year and this was an eye opener and possibly another headache to deal with.

[oinojo]

6.2.1 A 100 feet section of the course shall be selected as the measurement site. The section shall be
located where all vehicles will be driven at full throttle, i.e. a straightaway. This must be a defined
section of the course and not a section defined by gates. An area 100 feet wide (from course
centerline) on each side of this section of the course must be free of reflective surfaces larger than a
lamp post.

would the blue covering of the fence line count? im sure it should

IMO the meter should of been on the inside part of the course and after the backend sweeper.

[Tim_race_202]

I wonder what my DB's would be like in these obvious hard locations if the courses were to comply with the scca rule book. Myself along with other ST'ers were going 60+ mph through corners and on the straights (going up the hill). I exited the last slalom cone, I was going 50 mph. When I passed the sound meter, I was already going 65+ mph (whatever my no rev limiting car does). Why punish us when you set us up for failure?

First, I don't see a problem with the speed; Rule I.1.4 "Competition licenses are not required, and hazards to spectators, participants and property do not exceed those encountered in normal, legal highway driving." Many states have a 75mph highway limit (even 80 in couple states). It doesn't say "for the state you live in".

Second, and I'm admitting ignorance on the subject, but how does the speed affect your engine noise? Isn't 7000 rpm in first (going say 30mph) just as loud as 7000 rpm in second (going say 65mph)? If it doesn't affect the noise why are you blaming the speeds?

[jwisjw]

First, I don't see a problem with the speed; Rule I.1.4 "Competition licenses are not required, and hazards to spectators, participants and property do not exceed those encountered in normal, legal highway driving." Many states have a 75mph highway limit (even 80 in couple states). It doesn't say "for the state you live in".

Second, and I'm admitting ignorance on the subject, but how does the speed affect your engine noise? Isn't 7000 rpm in first (going say 30mph) just as loud as 7000 rpm in second (going say 65mph)? If it doesn't affect the noise why are you blaming the speeds?


'When laying out a course, the size of the vehicles competing should
be taken in consideration and the dimensions specified in the
following rules are only minimums:'

'Courses must be tight enough so that cars run the entire course
in their lower gears. Speeds on straight stretches should not
normally exceed the low 60’s (mph) for the fastest Stock and
Street Prepared category cars. The fastest portions of the course
shall be those most remote from spectators and property. Turns
should not normally allow speeds in excess of 45 mph in unprepared
cars.'

[dwkfym]

Slow down the courses so people can pass sound, and that is only if speed has anything to do with sound levels? If it does, please explain.

How does that have anything to do with consistency? Wouldn't be equipment type, and proximity to other structures around the sound meter? In my opinion, speed "limits" (which is very loosely defined to begin with) in place for safety reasons that account for most autocross lots' small size (we have a really big lot though) should not be used to attack another aspect of the event that has nothing to do with safety.

[jwisjw]

Oh boy. Slow down the courses so people can pass sound, and that is only if speed has anything to do with sound levels?

How does that have anything to do with consistency? Wouldn't be equipment type, and proximity to other structures around the sound meter?

we've already established that the consistency and placement of the sound meter is based on what the event chair says. So I'm attacking this from a different approach, I believe if the courses were now made to comply with scca's rule book that would have allowed me to be at a lower rpm which I would have been quieter and it would have been a safer course... ;)

[SVTfocus]

Speeds on straight stretches should not
normally exceed the low 60’s (mph) for the fastest Stock and
Street Prepared category cars... Turns
should not normally allow speeds in excess of 45 mph in unprepared
cars.'

Should is not the same thing as shall.

[Tim_race_202]

we've already established that the consistency and placement of the sound meter is based on what the event chair says. So I'm attacking this from a different approach, I believe if the courses were now made to comply with scca's rule book that would have allowed me to be at a lower rpm which I would have been quieter and it would have been a safer course... ;)

True dat, but what I'm asking is what if the sound meter is placed in a position where you are at the high rpm end of first gear? Wouldn't your car be just as loud even though you're going a slower speed? ie the 7000 rpm in first gear just as loud as 7000 rpm in 2nd, or 3rd, or ect...

[dwkfym]

Exactly. I'm not trying to start arguments, and since I'm no longer in San Diego anyways you guys can do whatever I want with my opinions. But, unless someone explains to us why, I don't know what bringing up speed limits would accomplish except for future slower (less fun?) courses. The sound reading will remain inconsistent.

But if the sound readings are indeed inconsistent, I do see a valid point in frustration in setting up a car one way, only to find out in a later season it wasn't okay. It would be nice if it was clarified/warned: like posting a notice that sound readings one day may not be consistent with other times, and that the day with your worst sound reading is what you should go by. But that doesn't actually solve the frustration..

I think someone spending the time to look over sound results and experiment with a static sound reading in a stationary position to come up with "static reading guidelines" would be pretty awesome, even if the region will have no part in any of these "static" readings. At least someone could do it on their own. Guideline should be followed with a big disclaimer saying that these readings have no "legal" effect in SCCA events.

For example, showing that static reading from X feet from the exhaust pipe (pipe pointed down or right at the sound meter) in open space, at around Y temperature at Z humidity. .. or is that too complicated? maybe some audio engineer can chime in on this. Maybe we don't need to go as far as mentioning humidity and temperature.

I would also like to add that the sound rule is in place so that we can continue to use our lot. If someone outside hears about our violations, even though the freeway above probably makes more noise, it won't be good. To me a good-faith "best-effort" seems to be encouraged here in our region.

[Steve35]

Don't expect perfection in a volunteer group. We all try our best to keep it consistent.

[ASPC5]

we've already established that the consistency and placement of the sound meter is based on what the event chair says. So I'm attacking this from a different approach, I believe if the courses were now made to comply with scca's rule book that would have allowed me to be at a lower rpm which I would have been quieter and it would have been a safer course... ;)

Wow. Now I truly have seen everything. Be careful what you wish for :thwack:

Jeff, in my experience sound readings in SD can vary by as much as 7 or 8 dB from event to event if everything that affects this number happens to stack up in the "wrong" direction. Your list of previous readings tells me you are far too close to the edge to be comfortable. Stop complaining and quiet the car, or live with the possibility that you will be over at any given event. If you still want to fight about it, then go ahead and argue a case why you feel the limit should be higher than it currently is.

[jwisjw]

Wow. Now I truly have seen everything. Be careful what you wish for :thwack:

Jeff, in my experience sound readings in SD can vary by as much as 7 or 8 dB from event to event if everything that affects this number happens to stack up in the "wrong" direction. Your list of previous readings tells me you are far too close to the edge to be comfortable. Stop complaining and quiet the car, or live with the possibility that you will be over at any given event. If you still want to fight about it, then go ahead and argue a case why you feel the limit should be higher than it currently is.
lol, Gary, i was just joking about that.

[nalbar]

Don't expect perfection in a volunteer group. We all try our best to keep it consistent.

Your missing the point Steve,

By 'make it consistent' they mean 'make it so I never fail no matter what I do to my car'.

Just like 'Anybody else think my PAX is silly?' means 'I want a PAX that puts me high on the list so I look cool when I show the list to cute chicks'.


:rolleyes:



nalbar

[Cullen]

Just like 'Anybody else think my PAX is silly?' means 'I want a PAX that puts me high on the list so I look cool when I show the list to cute chicks'.


:rolleyes:



nalbar

Don't tell me that's how you be gamin' chicks Wizzle.

[oinojo]

Your missing the point Steve,

By 'make it consistent' they mean 'make it so I never fail no matter what I do to my car'.

Just like 'Anybody else think my PAX is silly?' means 'I want a PAX that puts me high on the list so I look cool when I show the list to cute chicks'.


:rolleyes:



nalbar

now we're talking!!! :up::p:clap::bow:

[-W-]

It's too bad there wasn't an official method specified to test the sound meter before the start of an event and an announcement or bulletin regarding that day's test readings so that competitors could make necessary adjustments.

[chapmanr]

I will hit the 20th anniversary of my first autocross in San Diego next year. A lot of things have changed, even the sanctioning group we affiliate with.

But, sound compliance has been a constant, year in and year out issue. It has occupied a huge amount of time for the Board in the dozen years I've been attending meetings.

I have had loud cars with minimal muffling, and have never had an ongoing sound issue.

So, here are some things to think about:

1) Loudness will vary with humidity and barometric pressure, as well as background objects, relative height of the meter against the noise source, and the presence of other cars on a part of the track that is within the sensor's sweet spot. I think the latter is the source of some of the "out of nowhere" readings that happen from time to time.

Conclusion: as someone pointed out earlier, you're asking for trouble if you try to tune for 91 db.

2) A Supertrapp exhaust tip with the removable plates is the best flexible solution for a marginal (92-95 db) sound problem. Leave all plates off if sound is not an issue. If it is an issue, put on 6 plates. This gives you the visible change to point out to the chair/sound chair so you can run again. If you're still loud, take out a plate or two, and you've made another change so you can run yet again...and so on.

3) If you're above 95, you need to look at the mufflers. You will not be able to add a tip or point the exhaust away and avoid problems. Period.

4) Some people advocate the rotatable tip so you point the exhaust away from the meter. This usually works..I have one on my road race RX7. HOWEVER, this really irritates some of our more sensitive members and there have been efforts to have it ruled unsportsmanlike conduct or legislate against it. The Supertrapp is a better alternative.

5) Intake noise is often a matter of the engine sound resonating against the hood. If you think its an issue, apply some light sound deadening material to the underside of the hood.

6) Look at where the exhaust pipe ends. My CRX has no cat and a small Borla exhaust, which are notably loud. However, I mounted the muffler where the cat was and put a really short exhaust tip on which terminates between the rear tires and is pointed downward with a slight bend and an angled cut. The tires act as a sound barrier and limit the sound propagation to the sides, and the downward tip is always pointed away from the meter.

7) If you're in a spec or near spec class (like, say ST:>) everyone has the same sound issue and hardware selections to deal with. There is no point in putting an ultra light exhaust system on for the Tour if the result is to get you DQ'd. Duplicate what others have found successful, and find your competitive advantage elsewhere.

8) Lightness is a huge issue in the momentum classes, but when you're dealing with sprung weight ten lbs is not a big deal in a 2000 pound car, especially when the weight is mounted low and to the rear of the car (for a FWD car). A simple proof: rearranging Newton's 2nd law, acceleration = force/mass. Hold force (torque) constant, and up the mass by 10 pounds, and you degrade acceleration by 1/2 of one percent. If it takes the 2000 lb car 2 seconds to go from 30 to 50, it will take the 2010 lb car 2.01 seconds. Repeat that 10 times (realistic for a typical course) and you're all the way to to a tenth of a second.

As my wife points out, the cheapest and easiest way to get weight out of the car is to get weight out of the driver. I could easily get 50 pounds out of the car that way..... but not all of you have that as a realistic option.

Think through and implement some of the above, and I guarantee you that you'll be able to worry about more important things (like setup and driving technique) and everyone (sound chair included) will have more fun.

[Steve35]

What Ron said!:rock2:

[jwisjw]

Ron,

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/6228/dsc00012de.jpg
picture is just showing the example of the muffler.

My SD setup consists of two repackable coast fabracation mufflers (repacked before put on the car with less then 2k miles). They are very large as you can see from the picture. They are 3" I.D., 4.5" O.D. Housing and 12" Long each. The exit of the exhaust tip is right in the middle of the rear lower contorl arm (right next to the wheel). The tip is turnable and I have never turned it away from the meter, it has always been pointed down. The tip is easily turnable but like I said, I have never had a problem with this setup until this previous event.

To me it seemed like this would have been sufficient enough but I guess not.

Supertrapp would be my last resort..

[Dov]

As people have mentioned DB will vary as a function of humidity and temp. If your really big on maximizing your DB the weather report will give you estimates of both of these factors (with varying amounts of accuracy). Make some calculations and adjust your car accordingly. Otherwise I suggest you try and tune your car to run in the high 80Db range just to be safe.

[jwisjw]

As people have mentioned DB will vary as a function of humidity and temp. If your really big on maximizing your DB the weather report will give you estimates of both of these factors (with varying amounts of accuracy). Make some calculations and adjust your car accordingly. Otherwise I suggest you try and tune your car to run in the high 80Db range just to be safe.

The car has been under 90db multiple of runs, so I assume it's been in the mid-high 80dB range.

Does anyone recall which side of the car the sound meter would have been on at the 11-22 event?

[DelSolBurrow]

my del sol is usually in the mid to high 80's and I was given a warning for a 90.8 DB on sunday. I always seem to hit higher numbers when the meter is closer to the stadium. I had another event where the meter was in the exact same location (track different obviously) but there was a radio show contest and there was a line of cars in the road that circles the stadium. I tripped the 93 DB limit every single run, no matter what I modified. Just the proximity of everything kept the sound bouncing around the meter. The blue fenced off area could have contributed to the sound issues most the Honda guys had on sunday.

I say just don't run so close to the DB limit, but I still don't get how Jon's car got louder by putting stock items on. Still baffled there

[chapmanr]

I know, Supertrapps are ugly and those little screws that hold the plates on are a pain. Nothing is better in terms of adapting your car to ambient sound conditions effectively and in a small amount of time, though.

A number of former regulars from LA have stopped coming down due to sound, which is a shame. All they have to do is grit their teeth, spend less than a $100 and spend a few minutes bolting a piece of metal on the car.

But, its a vital issue for the program, as public complaints can shut us down. SDKA had to stop running events in the West lot not long ago (for a while, anyway) due to sound complaints.

[oinojo]

http://elfyourself.jibjab.com/view/GUkZO3frcGzZ9vG2?cmpid=ey_fb_friend

Is this too loud? Its us ST folk. :banana:

[chapmanr]

Couldn't see the picture from where I was at before. It looks like a pretty good implementation of the same placement I had with the CRX. So....

Any problem before it was repacked? If not, there might be an issue with the repack...different material than before or whatever. The solution might be to pack it with one of the other ones available. I know Coast has three options. Their literature deals mainly with the difference in temperature resistance, but the materials used are so different there must be a different in sound.

Secondly, from your description it sounds like you have the two mufflers in series (?). Usually the second muffler/resonator has different dimensions and or geometry.

[oinojo]

Couldn't see the picture from where I was at before. It looks like a pretty good implementation of the same placement I had with the CRX. So....

Any problem before it was repacked? If not, there might be an issue with the repack...different material than before or whatever. The solution might be to pack it with one of the other ones available. I know Coast has three options. Their literature deals mainly with the difference in temperature resistance, but the materials used are so different there must be a different in sound.

Secondly, from your description it sounds like you have the two mufflers in series (?). Usually the second muffler/resonator has different dimensions and or geometry.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/oinojo/DSC01407.jpg?t=1260326143

http://www.246tuning.com/images/Greddy%20SP2%20Exhaust%20System.jpg

though mine arent coast mufflers. I ran my quietest exhaust setting with a 18" long magnaflow 2.5" id muffler AND a Greddy Muffler with a turn down tip.

I normally run just the Magnaflow with it turned down. Worked for majority of the year. I added the second portion on my 2 last runs with a stock intake and the car was louder than my first two violations.

[fd_racer]

The blue fence was not near the meter at all (trust me I looked) the blue fence ended at least 100 yards before...... Two events ago it was right by the meter this last one was not at all..... It was in a 100% legit spot (I know the rules very well trust me)...

Kiesel

[gkd]

I just wanted everyone to know that I am installing a new exhaust system on my CSP car. Get ready for it! JK.

I am actually putting an off-the-shelf exhaust system with a resonator and a muffler as my old one is worn out. I went through a lot of experimentation over the years and finally the system that worked consisted of an 18" long resonator and a Dynomax Ultraflo Welded Race muffler(has large packing volume). This muffler actually works, is affordable, straight through but heavy. Even using both a resonator and a large volume muffler, I have a variety of tailpipe attachments(straight, Supertrapp, turndown with Dynatech perforated cone inside and 90) to deal with any surprises. I also have a second lightweight exhaust system with Burns mufflers but stopped using it for SD.

From what I gather(I was not there) there were not any significant issues with the meter location last Sunday, but there have been situations in the past with reflective objects on either side of the meter and those do affect the readings. I try to work the sound meter assignment so I can learn and have seen that trolley support columns, Port-a-potties, K-rail, light poles can all affect the readings. Barometric pressure has a significant effect as well as whether the meter is placed on the downhill side of the course. This last condition can result with tailpipes being practically at the same height as the microphone and from what I have seen, it may well be the single most significant variable in meter placement.

One interesting location I found to cause a lot of high readings was when the course ran on the west side of the ditch and the meter was on the east side up the slope. The cars were up the slope on one side of the ditch and the meter up the the other side. What ended up happening was that the tailpipes were almost level with the meter and the concave surface in between seemed to elevate the readings.

It is tough to place the meter appropriately as there may be a lack of straights in some course designs and too many reflective objects close by. I just hope that the person placing the meter reads the entire section of the rulebook regarding meter placement and attempts to find the best solution possible.

George

[DelSolBurrow]

Geez, how in the world is your civic that loud if your running a 18" res and a muffler??? All I m using is a straight through Magna flow muffler and my 90.8 DB is the highest I have had all year.

[nalbar]

John, George drives a miata. He is a past Driver of Eminence, past San Diego Driver of the Year, and past multiple time National Champ. And very very fast.

And one of the more responsible members of our group. So he is doing that because he wants to solve an issue, not gloss over it or blame other people.

nalbar

[oinojo]

I just wanted everyone to know that I am installing a new exhaust system on my CSP car. Get ready for it! JK.

I am actually putting an off-the-shelf exhaust system with a resonator and a muffler as my old one is worn out. I went through a lot of experimentation over the years and finally the system that worked consisted of an 18" long resonator and a Dynomax Ultraflo Welded Race muffler(has large packing volume). This muffler actually works, is affordable, straight through but heavy. Even using both a resonator and a large volume muffler, I have a variety of tailpipe attachments(straight, Supertrapp, turndown with Dynatech perforated cone inside and 90) to deal with any surprises. I also have a second lightweight exhaust system with Burns mufflers but stopped using it for SD.

From what I gather(I was not there) there were not any significant issues with the meter location last Sunday, but there have been situations in the past with reflective objects on either side of the meter and those do affect the readings. I try to work the sound meter assignment so I can learn and have seen that trolley support columns, Port-a-potties, K-rail, light poles can all affect the readings. Barometric pressure has a significant effect as well as whether the meter is placed on the downhill side of the course. This last condition can result with tailpipes being practically at the same height as the microphone and from what I have seen, it may well be the single most significant variable in meter placement.

One interesting location I found to cause a lot of high readings was when the course ran on the west side of the ditch and the meter was on the east side up the slope. The cars were up the slope on one side of the ditch and the meter up the the other side. What ended up happening was that the tailpipes were almost level with the meter and the concave surface in between seemed to elevate the readings.

It is tough to place the meter appropriately as there may be a lack of straights in some course designs and too many reflective objects close by. I just hope that the person placing the meter reads the entire section of the rulebook regarding meter placement and attempts to find the best solution possible.

George

Warren is right, I was wrong. /thread

[nalbar]

This is the location of the meter that gets people the most


Actually, no.

And that was not the situation this past Sunday. The situation George is describing is pretty rare. Car on one side of the ditch and meter on the other, above?

Pretty rare.



nalbar

[jwisjw]

John, George drives a miata. He is a past Driver of Eminence, past San Diego Driver of the Year, and past multiple time National Champ. And very very fast.

And one of the more responsible members of our group. So he is doing that because he wants to solve an issue, not gloss over it or blame other people.

nalbar

Warren, if you didn't notice that was what Jon Lugod was running on his car this past weekend and DelSolBurrow was shocked. But thanks for noticing that us ST'ers are one of the more responsible members of your group and do want to solve an issue and not gloss over it and blame other people.

[Dov]

Random though that has little to do with this conversation: At the August 30 SCNAX event I broke an exhaust hanger off during my last run in my Sentra. This put a 2 inch hole my exhaust 4 inches past the header. I ran the last half of my run (everything past the double Chicago box) with the car blaring well over 93Db (I'd guestimate 100-104). Nobody said anything. According to the sound log that was my quietest run, so it happened after the sound guy. Still figure someone would have noticed. My ears were ringing for a day after driving it home....

[nalbar]

Random though that has little to do with this conversation: At the August 30 SCNAX event I broke an exhaust hanger off during my last run in my Sentra. This put a 2 inch hole my exhaust 4 inches past the header. I ran the last half of my run (everything past the double Chicago box) with the car blaring well over 93Db (I'd guestimate 100-104). Nobody said anything. According to the sound log that was my quietest run, so it happened after the sound guy. Still figure someone would have noticed. My ears were ringing for a day after driving it home....

Heh.

Marco blew one of the gaskets on my exhaust out at the SDAD practice and my car is a LOT louder. REALLY loud inside. I was worried sick on Sunday.

Everyone knew I was worried so the Chair kept pretending to be bringing me slips.

It did not help that after one of my runs Jeff K came sprinting over and went 'Warren, I don't want to worry you but they just called event chair to the trailer'. Oh ya, I'm not worried at all now, Jeff.

One of the few events that I actually paid attention to meter location.


nalbar

[oinojo]

okie dokie

plans for 2010
1) install supertrapp adapter discs
2) make Warren happy
3) make the region happy
4) make myself happy

i agree that we need to be quieter. No question behind that. I would hate to lose the ONLY lot we have down here.

[nalbar]

#2 is impossible.

You are, after all, a civic driver.

Although you are civic driver with a horse shoe up your a$$. Imagine my unhappiness level if your points had actually counted, and cost us.

It's a convergence of galactic proportions.

Civic + 3 sound violations + club points = Warren's head exploding.

[oinojo]

Heh.

Marco blew one of the gaskets on my exhaust out at the SDAD practice and my car is a LOT louder. REALLY loud inside. I was worried sick on Sunday.

Everyone knew I was worried so the Chair kept pretending to be bringing me slips.

It did not help that after one of my runs Jeff K came sprinting over and went 'Warren, I don't want to worry you but they just called event chair to the trailer'. Oh ya, I'm not worried at all now, Jeff.

One of the few events that I actually paid attention to meter location.


nalbar

lol i was joking with Marco while you were running that we should call the chairman to come talk to you. Cept i was going to say your blabbing about club points was too loud for the sound meter. :banana:

[chapmanr]

I think we might be seeing something worth retaining here...there's more to quieting a car than hooking up another muffler.

Aside from having sound absorbant material inside, well designed mufflers also address sound wave frequency and resonance.

It seems entirely possible that a pair of different mufflers might work against each other, with the second muffler cancelling the sound reduction of the first.

The other case, with two of the same mufflers hooked up, you have doubled the absorptive material in the muffler core (which is minimal in the Coast Fabrication pieces) but the second one does nothing to change the nature of the sound waves.

Bottom line: either test and change what doesn't work (like George), or get a muffler and resonator from the same manufacturer which will work together.

And carry a Supertrapp just in case;)

George is my hero.

[nalbar]

Cept i was going to say your blabbing about club points was too loud for the sound meter.


Good thing the meter was not out AFTER the event. Plus I knew we were in good shape, and they could not catch us.

It's all in good fun. Even this thread, it's all in good fun.

Although it is like going in my back yard a talking to a couple of rocks.

Hey! they say that about me!


nalbar

[oinojo]

I think we might be seeing something worth retaining here...there's more to quieting a car than hooking up another muffler.

Aside from having sound absorbant material inside, well designed mufflers also address sound wave frequency and resonance.

It seems entirely possible that a pair of different mufflers might work against each other, with the second muffler cancelling the sound reduction of the first.

The other case, with two of the same mufflers hooked up, you have doubled the absorptive material in the muffler core (which is minimal in the Coast Fabrication pieces) but the second one does nothing to change the nature of the sound waves.

Bottom line: either test and change what doesn't work (like George), or get a muffler and resonator from the same manufacturer which will work together.

And carry a Supertrapp just in case;)

George is my hero.

George has the same muffler guy I do. :shift:Love seeing the rally cars he brings to the shop. (i'm there a lot)
RPMuffler - Richard's Performance Muffler (new location in Oceanside)
One of my local sponsors... (ironically)

[oinojo]

Good thing the meter was not out AFTER the event. Plus I knew we were in good shape, and they could not catch us.

It's all in good fun. Even this thread, it's all in good fun.

Although it is like going in my back yard a talking to a couple of rocks.

Hey! they say that about me!


nalbar

oh of course... I did worse than the DNS (did not start) people! My worse pax/overall position since i started autocrossing back in 06'

[Leonard Cachola]

I
As my wife points out, the cheapest and easiest way to get weight out of the car is to get weight out of the driver. I could easily get 50 pounds out of the car that way..... but not all of you have that as a realistic option.

I'd have some serious health issues if I did that...

[oinojo]

just to stir up the pot some more. :)

Thread Topic is on ST bumper allowances and why it should be changed.

Andy Hollis: Chicken wire or duct tape.

Or swiss-cheesed single-layer fiberglass or aluminum flashing.

The fact that you think 5 lbs is no big deal means you don't appreciate how well developed the best ST cars are right now. 5lbs from each end of the car is significant given how close these cars are.

And based on all the member feedback the rulesmakers received, you should expect to see proposals to do away with this allowance in ST in the very near future (BTW Pat, you have some reading to do!!).

--Andy

[nalbar]

just to stir up the pot some more. :)

Thread Topic is on ST bumper allowances and why it should be changed.

Andy Hollis: Chicken wire or duct tape.

Or swiss-cheesed single-layer fiberglass or aluminum flashing.

The fact that you think 5 lbs is no big deal means you don't appreciate how well developed the best ST cars are right now. 5lbs from each end of the car is significant given how close these cars are.

And based on all the member feedback the rulesmakers received, you should expect to see proposals to do away with this allowance in ST in the very near future (BTW Pat, you have some reading to do!!).

--Andy

It is quite rare for something, particularly a post on the internet, to be perfect. This post achieves perfection. It touches all issues with a needle.

The depth of obtuseness from every possible angle is astonishing.

Thank you, Jon.

nalbar

[oinojo]

It is quite rare for something, particularly a post on the internet, to be perfect. This post achieves perfection. It touches all issues with a needle.

The depth of obtuseness from every possible angle is astonishing.

Thank you, Jon.

nalbar

I KNEW you'd love it. :wallbash::sheep::coolnana::clap:
:rock2::thwack::scared011:

[chapmanr]

Physics is physics. The issue of the effect of weight on acceleration is a lot more complex than I deal with in my post, but my point is that ten pounds on the rear of a 2000 lb FWD car is not material. An implicit but unstated assumption is that 1/10th of a second on a sixty second course is not material.

It isn't normally, but if that's all that's going to separate one from a National Championship then it is. I have finished out of the trophies at a National Tour by .005, and another by .007. The good news is that they don't care about sound at El Toro, Wendover, or Lincoln.

But, art of the art of life lies in knowing when to compromise.

If ten pounds (or 23!) is going to keep you from running in San Diego or make you a pariah, you're better off biting the bullet, accepting the weight, and getting the seat time.

Here are suggestions to help lose that ten pounds elsewhere that won't get you in trouble.

In general order of smart aleckness:

Swift Springs (1/2 unsprung weight!). Grams lighter than Eibach!
Aluminum Bodied Shocks (all unsprung weight!)
Open ended lug nuts (more unsprung weight)
Skip tire balancing so no wheel weight (again, all unsprung!!)
Aluminum sprint car steering wheel with holes drilled in it
Drill holes in shift knob
Drain and plug heater core to reduce weight of coolant
Carbon fiber helmet (one pound, up high)
Lose wallet, belt and cell phone before running
Needless to say, one's bowels and bladder should be emptied before running.
Remove all spare change from under seat, and thoroughly vaccum the carpet.
Empty glove box and ashtray.
Have brake rotors ground down to service minimum.
Don't use any pads that aren't thin enough to squeel, and no brake shims.
Strip car to bare metal, repaint with metallic paint without primer.
Shave all body hair.
Silk shorts, silk shirt, and ballet slippers.

And, if you have a subwoofer in the car, we need to talk. ;)

[Dov]

Silk shorts, silk shirt, and ballet slippers.


Helps you go faster and feel prettier all at the same time.... brilliant.

[Philc]

Instead of picking on sound for causing a loud car to be DQ'd, should we be thanking sound for imposing limits so we can continue to run at Qualcomm?

keeping the neighbours happy should be a priority. I don't know about you, but I can't afford to take my car to LA or further once a month.

If your car is louder on a clowdy humid day, then it will be louder to the Qualcomm neighbours also.

my $0.02. I've been autox-ing here a while and years ago when I was on the board this was still a hot topic.

/off soapbox.

[Philc]

We all know there are cars louder than mine that get away with sound, so please save me your excuses by keeping your neighbors happy.

By "neighbors", I was refering to Qualcomms neighbors, not mine.

Too many noise complaints to the stadium, and we won't be allowed to run there anymore. Period.

Yes, there are louder cars there that dont break sound, but we need to work within the rules we have in place. These cars make more noise on a different frequency than the meter is sensitive to. Pointing to another car and mentioning that theirs is louder won't change you DB reading or the written rules.

A different style muffler may emit a tone outside of the meters "sensitive" range.

[Dov]

A different style muffler may emit a tone outside of the meters "sensitive" range.

The meter senses air pressure differences...period. Your ears are more sensitive to some frequencies and tone combinations. That doesn't make those frequencies and tones inherently louder. It makes you perceive them as louder.

Although our neighbors have the same flawed human ears you do and thus are sensitive to the same frequencies and tones. However the Db meter is currently the only fair way we have to measure sounds volumes so that point is mute.

[Cullen]

Does the stadium really care if people complain to them when those people living in the apartments aren't paying thousands of dollars a month like we are?

Who has the authority to tell the stadium they're being too loud?:confused:

[oinojo]

Does the stadium really care if people complain to them when those people living in the apartments aren't paying thousands of dollars a month like we are?

Who has the authority to tell the stadium they're being too loud?:confused:

:popcorn:

[Steve35]

I hear the higest db reading the satdium has was from a ZZ Top concert!!:rock2:

[Frank S]

I hear the higest db reading the satdium has was from a ZZ Top concert!!:rock2:
I suppose the rim-dwellers and condo/apt-warren residents have given up complaining about the noise from in-stadium events like ZZ Top and divers fireworks "displays". Those are unconscionably loud, and bother me at home, seven or eight miles away and beyond a couple of significant ridges. Makes me think it has to do with how much money is involved and who you know. And your contract with the "authority".

When in 1967-68 we (San Diego Region SCCA) were about to take advantage of the specially double-thick $150,000-extra pavement on portions of the West Lot, by staging Regional and National races, it was all cool until a couple of property-owners on the South Rim of Mission Valley reported "troublesome noise" from actual un-muffled racing cars whizzing around on the lot. I don't remember if it was the club or the City who paid for experts to survey the problem. Among their techniques was the repeated firing of a .45-caliber pistol at the side of the San Diego River, while measuring sound level at the complainers' property lines closest to the lot.

Results were unequivocal: the gun was loudest, freeway traffic next, and the noise of racing cars was last of the three. But the racing cars were "noisiest", which was interpreted to mean the complainers were complaining about unusual noise rather than too much noise.

I suppose the modern SPL instruments will have different response curves from those of forty years ago, but I believe the exercise and the experience indicate it's not likely that complainers are upset by sound levels but by other characteristics of emanations from their surroundings, and that in any event it's likely that their complaints will be supportable in terms of "loudness". Seems to me the amelioration of effects of exhaust sounds on listeners and on the meter in use are resultant from moving center-of-tone as much as from lowering sound pressure. Some circumstances reflect more or different energies which can beat against one another and create "louder" responses from the meters.

Bass singers broadcast more energy that will travel farther than soprano singers, but guess whose notes get noticed and commented on ...


As for placement of the meter, it seemed to me from the first that the sites in the stadium lot were too kind, on a perceptual level as well as physical: I stood at the meter and could hear an exhaust note get louder as the car passed and its pipe pointed more and more at my ears. When it was in the measuring area, from the meter position, it would be quite subdued, relative to what it seemed a few yards down the track. In more than one case I saw higher readings from an exhaust on a car three or more times as far away and not under scrutiny at that moment, than on any car in the measurement segment. Surely matching the letter rather than the spirit of the rule.


I think I remember having something else to say about these subjects, but duty calls.

[oinojo]

LOL @ Jon.

Ain't it the truth Jon, ain't it the truth.

:rolleyes:


nalbar

whats even funnier is that Chris Cullen is my co-driver for next year. So now there's drivers in the same civic with potential sound complaining for you next year! :thwack::D

[nalbar]

Chris Cullen is my co-driver for next year.



We'll see.


nalbar

[oinojo]

We'll see.


nalbar

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/11/9/633618451130633092-ohnoez.jpg

[dwkfym]

I don't get it anymore

[dwkfym]

I'm about to run a mazda comp exhaust with a test pipe. I don't have sound limits to worry about over there in Florida. But I don't want to be THAT obnoxious to and back from the track so I've been doing some research.

First, since a properly tuned exhaust neutralizes sound waves, so I don't know how it would re-amplify it unless it was very very specifically made to do so. I think. I don't know too much about the subject. But regardless, two tuned exhausts might not work as well as one may speculate. But read the following:

Secondly, I hear from Spec Miata racers running Laguna Seca on their solutions. They recommend a glass-pack + tuned muffler (like a magnaflow turbo muffler) for minimal HP loss. Though this sounds like it adds a lot of weight, I hear that it is very very effective. Makes a lot of sense. More effective to have the glasspack muffler before the tuned muffler.

If you are wondering on how I'll deal with my sound problem (obnoxiousness and getting pulled over) I am just going to use supertrapp.

I got a few questions: 1. is 4" discs good enough? 2. Supertrapp doesn't make anything for a 2.25" OD application, are there any solutions to this aside from welding on a 2.5" tip?


Hope this isn't thread hijack.

[STALKER L-67]

I for one don't get why some cars are so loud. With the muffler technology today there is really no excuse. DynoMax makes some really good quiet mufflers and is the only web site I have found which shows muffler flow and HP ratings before any measurable back pressure.

[woodrufj]

I for one don't get why some cars are so loud.
Don't cha know. If it ain't loud it ain't sh*t!

http://jaycomservices.com/images/mullet.jpg
It's not a hair style, it's a way of life.

Jay W

[froggy47]

Don't cha know. If it ain't loud it ain't sh*t!

http://jaycomservices.com/images/mullet.jpg
It's not a hair style, it's a way of life.

Jay W

lmao