Sk Pax

[70mustang]

Am I the only one here that thinks that the SK PAX numbers are kind of BS? Compare SK1AS to STU PAX, on a 60 second course STU is only believed to be 0.59 faster. SK2CS and STS have almost identical PAX numbers.

Someone with experience or just a loud voice please tell me why I'm wrong.

[itrbruce]

The impression I got when SK-classes came along was that it was for convenience and fun, not a serious class. I think you can do the math from there.

[nalbar]

for ..... fun, not a serious class.





Ya Ian, SK1 and SK2 were always planned as hobby classes! We never figured anybody remotely serious would ever go into them.


:rolleyes:


nalbar

[Cullen]

People don't want the SK cars to be represented properly in the PAX results. Also because they're were not likely to become national classes.

[-W-]

There is a generic .98 applied to all SK classes. Is it accurate for each SK sub-class? No, but that's the penalty for running the 'wrong' car.

Just like any class, there will be cars in the SK classes that will be at a disadvantage. In fact, there will be SK sub-classes that will be at a disadvantage. What do people feel are the top dog classes/cars in SK1 and SK2?

What are people proposing are proper SK PAX factors?

[70mustang]

The battle within each SK class should be even, the .98 has no effect on the results within the SK classes. Does anyone suppose that some cars/classes are at a greater disadvantage than others when they are of street tires rather than R compounds? The differential between the various classes within SK is set by the stock classes nationally right?

[woodrufj]

Does anyone suppose that some cars/classes are at a greater disadvantage than others when they are of street tires rather than R compounds? Oh yes. Light weight wins on street tires. Witness ST civics keeping up with STU cars. Only on a slick surface or rainy day would a race tire shod civic keep up with a race tire evo or M3.

My picks, Elise for SK1, pre-97 Miata (ES) for SK2.

Jay W

[SD MR2]

My picks, Elise for SK1, pre-97 Miata (ES) for SK2.

Jay W

Sad day - He's abandoned the MR2 contingency completely . . . :sad:

[-W-]

My picks would be Elise/Exige for SS/SK1 and MX-5 for CS/SK2. I don't know enough about DS, GS, and HS to come up with anything for those classes for SK2. I guess I could say the Lotus Caterham for CS/SK2 but they are so rare.

Does anyone think that maybe the SK1 PAX is a little soft due to the Elise/Exige's potential?

[nalbar]

Aren't the Caterham's excluded from stock classes?


Jeff C certainly had no trouble PAXing high with the SK PAX. I would say his results show that they are correct, rather than too hard.

People seem to think the only 'correct' PAX is the one that gets them first in PAX. It's an interesting dynamic.


nalbar

[-W-]

A Caterham was campaigned last year in CS and went to nationals but apparently they had issues and didn't compete on the second day.

One of the issues I see with SK is that most cars, even some of the top finishers, aren't prep'd to the highest level.

[woodrufj]

Aren't the Caterham's excluded from stock classes?
There's a few 7s/clones/whatevers, that actually qualify as a 'stock' car.


Andy, MR2 still has my R-compound love for ES. But the heavier (than early miatas), tricky to drive MR2 has it's disadvantages amplified on street tires. But deep down I think you know that ;-)

Jay W

[Sebastian R.]

A Caterham was campaigned last year in CS and went to nationals but apparently they had issues and didn't compete on the second day.

One of the issues I see with SK is that most cars, even some of the top finishers, aren't prep'd to the highest level.
I believe that Lotus or Caterham was there for it's last chance, as there will be a 25 year sunset rule in place for stock class. As I understand, the sunset rule does not carry over to the ST->SP->P->M categories.

[zo7vette]

Jeff C certainly had no trouble PAXing high with the SK PAX. I would say his results show that they are correct, rather than too hard.

nalbar

It is my opinion, that the SK PAX is about .7 to .8 on the hard side. It is much closer than it was with the RE01R's, they were over 1.5 off the race tires in PAX. Just look at my results, I jumped in the rankings when I switched to the Dunlops, but never took a top PAX.

[70mustang]

Jeff C certainly had no trouble PAXing high with the SK PAX. I would say his results show that they are correct, rather than too hard.

nalbar

But what does a 2nd place PAX mean when you are still 1.5 seconds from 1st?




People seem to think the only 'correct' PAX is the one that gets them first in PAX. It's an interesting dynamic.

nalbar

My question came out of my curiosity about what the PAX numbers could tell me about the difference in times I could anticipate in prepping my car for a different class, and to try to size up the competition in STU. I am not trying to complain about the potential PAX finish possible in any given class, but simply determine if there is any merit in comparing the PAX numbers as an actual indication of performance potential.

[nalbar]

But what does a 2nd place PAX mean when you are still 1.5 seconds from 1st?



Well, I don't think it means what you think it means.

Your not just comparing class/PAX when you look at results like that. You are also comparing driver and car prep. Jeff K is a multiple time National Champ in a FULLY prepped car for his class, on absolutely peak performance tires for his class (sometimes near one offs). To be even close is quite an achievement if the other driver is not putting the same time/effort in, on a less prepped car. A better comparison than the one you want might be LA, where there are more fully prepped cars.

I think it is safe to say that in San Diego nobody spends more time on keeping his car prepped than Jeff K. Add that prep to his skills and you have a 'hard target'.

This is in no way a slight on the other Jeff. Jeff C is arguably our best all around driver. Last event he drove Derek's car and the results speak for themselves. Or when he drives Dana's miata.

But PAX results pages are more than just the PAX.


nalbar

[nalbar]

BTW, next years PAX;

http://scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/rtp2010.html

[70mustang]

I heard that the s2000 is going to B stock?

[jason]

I heard that the s2000 is going to B stock?

It's not really a move. The current A stock is being renamed to B stock to make room for a new class (the 2010 A stock) that will have cars like the non-Z06 C5, 911, RX7. The current B stock is being merged with C stock.

[-W-]

There's a few 7s/clones/whatevers, that actually qualify as a 'stock' car.


Andy, MR2 still has my R-compound love for ES. But the heavier (than early miatas), tricky to drive MR2 has it's disadvantages amplified on street tires. But deep down I think you know that ;-)

Jay W


The only problem I have with this is what tires are the ES/SK2 Miatas going to run? Falkens? If so, I'd pick a newer MR2 with oem 15" rims in ES/SK2 because they can run stickier tires.

[chapmanr]

The big picture is that the PAX index works within SK2 really well.

I'd like to amplify a bit on Nalbar's comment on car prep. None of the SK2 cars to my knowledge are prepared to a National level. No Penskes, no 8 lb wheels, no "optimization" by a top flight race shop (Tripoint or TC Kline, for example).

You need that level of prep to be a top ten car in most National classes..or to be a top ten PAX in San Diego.

Unless you have Alien skills. And, we've got a few of those, too.

[SD MR2]

Andy, MR2 still has my R-compound love for ES. But the heavier (than early miatas), tricky to drive MR2 has it's disadvantages amplified on street tires. But deep down I think you know that ;-)

Jay W

I guess I may be in denial . . . or blissful ignorance. Either way, I'll do my best in the MR2 next year. :)

[Mtrotter]

The big picture is that the PAX index works within SK2 really well.

I'd like to amplify a bit on Nalbar's comment on car prep. None of the SK2 cars to my knowledge are prepared to a National level. No Penskes, no 8 lb wheels, no "optimization" by a top flight race shop (Tripoint or TC Kline, for example).

You need that level of prep to be a top ten car in most National classes..or to be a top ten PAX in San Diego.

Unless you have Alien skills. And, we've got a few of those, too.

I have to agree with Ron.

The indexing works for SK2. It appears to work with SK1 also. But since its basically between Jeff C and Ian A ... its hard to determine whats fair and what isnt.

now, SK2... there is some great drivers.... Steve Coe, Ron Chapman, Carl M, Bret Norgad..
A few SK2 drivers have trophied in open classes in national events prior to competing in SK2.
There is a lot of truth in the level of Preperation for SK classes also. I dont believe people have prepared their cars hardly at all. I know we hardly did.
We have had a few people from SK2 PAX in the top 10 also.. and Im pretty sure they are from earth.

There is a future for the class though. I think the fact that there is over 12 people competing in over 2 thirds of the events.... thats better than all the other classes. Seriously. Thats a good thing. Its a popular class!

[dwkfym]

Yeah. I'd take it that serious stock class and SK class preperation would be like showroom stock racing. "blueprint" off of parts in the parts bin. Run the lightest stock pistons that all weigh the same from another bin. Get the best crank.

Do density measurements to get the most even flywheel. Run the most curb-rashed lightest wheel possible. Run a truly serious exhaust setup that will last 3 autocross runs before burning off into vapor. Super-monotube shocks with hundreds of hours in valve tuning and even more playing around with gas pressures. Buy like 100 factory sway bars and pick the stiffest one. Measure each tires balance. Did I go too far at some point? lol.

[Dov]

Did I go too far at some point? lol.

Yes you forgot "get beaten by some punk kid with and 1/8 the prep your car has because you spent thousdands on making your car 0.01sec faster instead of spending that money on more driving schools"

[dwkfym]

just sayin' thats how you really prep a car. you'd be surprised by how much power and speed you can get out with that sort of tuning. (the second paragraph is all made up BS) very surprising. very much more than 0.01 second. maybe more like 0.1sec? kidding. more than that.

then we can put the punk kid in the said prepped car and he'll be untouchable.... . . :rock2:

[Steve35]

My picks, Elise for SK1, pre-97 Miata (ES) for SK2.

Jay W

The Miata is a GREAT car, but not for SK. Miata's are stuck with 14" wheels.:( The only decent 14" tires are RS-2's and RT-615's.
I'm hoping the RT-615-K Falken's will be faster and still be available in 14's

[mcontour]

The SK index was meant to correct for the difference between racing rubber versus street rubber.

When we included the SK classes, we just used the same index that Cal Club uses. If you feel that the index should be changed and can present some data to backup your recommendation, feel free to bring a proposal from your club to the committee.

Michael

[Mtrotter]

Having thought about this more... I agree with Ian. The indexing is "BS" but its all there. It seems to work ok for the majority of the classes/people but of course it wont work for everyone.

To refresh my memory, SK indexing is based on National open class indexing... with a .02 (2 percent) buffer? Now, with out doing any "actual" testing... I find it hard to believe that any car is only 2 percent faster with R compound tires vs. street tires... hmmm.

I believe that there is no true way to make this completely fair, other than to get the 2 prefered Rcomps, and 2 prefered streets... test them back to back on all classes of cars, same driver... same course... same day... average them and compile the data to come up with some indexes.

If then thats the case, how would you compare numbers from dry vs wet, or hot vs. cold. the list of variables could go on and on.

Since that isnt going to happen we can just deal with what we have now.

SK classes are poping up all over the country, its popular and fun. I wouldnt consider it a class to turn your nose up at, there are a lot of people competing in them just like open classes, but un like an open class, ha ha we have to use our calculators to figure out what time we need to get or how much faster we need to go on our next run.

[chapmanr]

I might be able to swing such a test with the Mini. I'll have some surplus 17" tires that I won't be able to use on the Protege since I'm switching to 16" in that car.

That said, they'll be old and tired (the tires, not me), not like brand new Hoosiers.

[-W-]

I disagree with the notion that the .02 buffer represents an average. It represents the difference between the top tier car on r-compound versus the top tier car (not necessarily the same car nor class) on street tires. Don't forget that it wouldn't be unreasonable to argue that you would also have to determine if there is already a discrepancy between the national street tire classes versus the r-compound classes.

I still haven't seen anyone propose an alternate adjustment factor. Should it be .03? .04? .05? I can agree that it is too harsh but by how much?

[-W-]

Now, with out doing any "actual" testing... I find it hard to believe that any car is only 2 percent faster with R compound tires vs. street tires... hmmm.

What do you think it should be?

[jason]

Isley did a comparison for SportsCar magazine a while back pitting r-compounds vs. street tires. IIRC, it was V710 vs. RE-01R (a top street tire at the time) on his stock class RX-8. The difference was something like 1.7 seconds over a 60 second course.

But this is only one data point and the newer street tires are faster. Different car and tire combinations would obviously have different results.

[Mtrotter]

[QUOTE=jason;20375]Isley did a comparison for SportsCar magazine a while back pitting r-compounds vs. street tires. IIRC, it was V710 vs. RE-01R (a top street tire at the time) on his stock class RX-8. The difference was something like 1.7 seconds over a 60 second course.

I remember reading this Comparison and it would be great if we could do another test like it with an SK1 car and an SK2 car. Probably something along the lines of the "top tier" car for each if one is available. Then test on a set of Hoosier A6's then on a set of Kumho XS or Toyo (what ever the masses agree is the fastest street tire. Then make our recommendations to the board with the results. I'm seriously guessing its going to be over 1.5 second difference on a 60 second course for an SK1 car and about half a second less for the SK2 car.
That's just a guess though. This might be something to really look into because SK classes are growing across the nation and growing fast. Maybe by coming up with some actual numbers it might change things. who knows?

[chaz572]

There is a lot of truth in the level of Preperation for SK classes also. I dont believe people have prepared their cars hardly at all. I know we hardly did.

I'll tell you this... The only thing I've touched on my R is shocks, alignment, and rims. And those Millenias are roughly 12 1/2 pounds -- not bad, but not Volks by any means. My exhaust is 100% factory original.


There is a future for the class though. I think the fact that there is over 12 people competing in over 2 thirds of the events.... thats better than all the other classes. Seriously. Thats a good thing. Its a popular class!

Absolutely. Not only was it getting lonely in D-Stock open, but I had to resort to comparing times against Derek and the STX hotshots to get any motivation to drive harder, which wasn't working very well. I grew as a driver more this year than I had in the past three years combined, and that's directly attributable to the constant high level of competition. The last time I had a noticeable skill improvement was when Bruce, Ernie, and I were duking it out, right on top of each other at every event.

I think SK will continue to be a strong class because it's got the momentum as a powerful incubator for driving skills, due to its deep and varied contingent of very strong drivers. It will draw in people who want to grow, which is a self-reinforcing reaction.

[Mtrotter]

Im interested to see how this year goes with a bunch of classes being bumped up a little in the indexing. I think H stock still has a bit of an advantage due to its rather low index .803 but they are still pretty slow cars and only a couple cars that can compete well in Qualcomms west lot with long courses.
Im interested to see how this year unfolds for the class. Dstock should be pretty tough to contend with.