Improved Street vs. Street Unlimited?

[froggy47]

Both being local classes, I looked at the supp regs.

IS is pretty clear, but SU says:

5.2 STREET UNLIMITED
Any vehicles running on DOT approved street tires may compete in this San Diego Region class.
5.2.1 Entrants competing in this class will display SU as the class designation on the vehicle and entry card.
5.2.2 Street Unlimited class will be assigned the PAX/RTP index for the Street Modified 2 class. 17
San Diego Region

That's it.

So what beyond IS upgrades, is there available to prepare a car in SU? More specifically, if you know, on a c5z what would you do for SU?

Thanks.

:)

[JonRobbinSS]

If you put in a non-GM powerplant it would tip you into SU. Not suggesting that..

Or doing anything you aren't allowed to do in IS other then using non-DOT approved tires.

So if there is a rule in IS that is chafing you and holding you back in some way, here is a class with almost no rules.

[froggy47]

Is SU (local class) beyond the development allowed in SP (national class)?

How does a local class like IS or SU get "born"

What year did IS and SU get started?

Who ran in the classes those years?

Do local classes get phased out (like national classes) if no one enters them for a while?

So many questions only an SDR historian will know.

Thanks.

[RandyC]

I have no idea as to the rest of your questions, but SU allows ANYTHING as long as it is running on DOT tires.

Now, really that means one could show up with an AMOD car on Hoosiers. Which would seem a bit unfair. If I was to tweak the rules, I would suggest that the class be limited to street legal cars. That still leaves the door WAY open for all kinds of things (and do not muck it up with questions about Calif registrations or smog, that should not be the point of the class).

To me, the idea of SU (or CSM in CalClub) is to allow a "run whatever you brung" idea. Specially useful for cars that can't run in any legal class, such as my Noble (until January 1st).

In general, any local class can get started by a member club asking to have it started. They float a proposal. Note that normally one would expect some participation numbers. No sense in making a new class for one person and there are negatives (we are already seeing them) when too many classes exist.

Eventually one might note the existence of a local class with little participation and petition to have it removed. Still, reality is not many people will care about the existence of a class they do not run in and so it will probably keep going.

[nalbar]

there are negatives (we are already seeing them) when too many classes exist.

OK, now it's on!

Where exactly are we 'seeing them'? As in everything in life, there are cost/benefit ratios in effect. It's easy to claim negatives, but in order to tell if they are real rather than perceived, you also should look at any positives.

Where in our region do you see negatives from us having to many classes? And what are the negatives? And what are the classes?

Step carefully, minefields ahead.



nalbar

[RandyC]

There are positives, but like anything in life, there are two sides.

You get less participation in other classes. Look at Superstock this weekend. One entry. The creation of the ST classes have merit (I never said there were not positives!) but they detracted from those that would have run in stock classes and now those classes are much less full.

Eventually with too many classes, you get dilution where there is less talent in any one class. For example, a great class (IMO) to run in would be a class of 20 drivers or more. Better to be in the top 5 of that, then to win in a class of 3. As the number of classes increase, there are fewer and fewer well subscribed classes.

The accounting gets a little harder. Imagine if we all ran one class. The accounting is easier. The more classes, the more indexes to manage. The rulebook gets thicker. Certainly not a big deal. But it reminds me of engineering drawings. The company has a problem with one vendor so they add a note to the drawing. As the years go by... more notes get added. Eventually the whole front page of the drawing is notes.... most of which nobody even remembers why they exist, other than that is the way we always did it. :) So we create more and more classes, at the local level there is not a mechanism for automatically removing them as they do at the National level.

At the national levels, the negatives get added include: Less chance of sponsorship winnings from tire companies as many classes end up less than 5 entrants. ProSolo gets messed up because there are fewer real classes and more people running in some odd bump index class. More classes means less good drivers to make the challenges as they pull the top class winners and now there are more classes.

Basically... I have been running for quite a few years, though far less than some... and I have seen the changes. There are some good things. But some negatives too. Kinda like the idea that all kids should get a trophy for playing. On the whole it seems like a good idea that fosters participation, but philosophically there is a negative side to that.

But Warren, don't read into this that I am a big anti-class person. I am not. I have voted positively for every new class on the board. I voted for allowing FM to have their own class. I advocated allowing local classes at the Tour. I am running in a local only class I 100% support. Just that I believe there are some negatives we should be mindful of.

[nalbar]

OK, let's look at SS. We had three SS competitors this weekend. One is this years champ (Bob) who chose to run IS1, one ran SK1, one ran SS.

The one that ran SK1 (Steve W.) ran his miata all year, he would never have qualified for a year end SS trophy, and had no desire to do so. The one that ran in SS this past weekend does not belong to a club, so even if he had run all year (he also did not run enough events) he also does not qualify.

That pattern took place all year. Actually looking at the numbers you can see that SK1 had no effect at all on SS participation. The truth is that we did not have the cars, period. No matter what Bob thinks, even without SK1, he would have been alone. Perhaps he should take more showers.

Of course that is only SS. AS is more relevant because SK1 had three full timers, AS only one (Dave). BS (Kris and Ken) stayed in class. So the whole argument (I know you are not saying this Randy, I am aiming at others) for SK1 hurting stock classes is based on one class out of three. One extra jacket, for which in trade the region perhaps gets a few more entries. SK1 is a push, but only if you ignore the money that SK1 participants saved on tires, no small consideration. Add that in and it's a huge win for those participants.

Want to take a go at SK2?

Last weekend;
13 CS
2 DS
3 GS
2 HS

Sounds like a lot, except we will only get 8 qualifiers for year end trophies (maximum);

4 CS
2 DS
1 HS
1 GS
the above are SK1 participants who qualify, by class.

We will give CS and ES and GS and FS year end trophies this year. Plus the SK2 trophy. Without SK2 we would have given (maybe) trophies to DS and HS also. HS would have run more, GS would have had 2, FS still 1. This is assuming a person who did not want to pay for racing tires would have come out to qualify (a big assumption) after running a few events against race tires. So the 'competitiveness' of a class or two goes up, but for two more, not so much. Assuming no one gave up half way through the year. People believe the stock classes got killed, but only CS would have had a LOT more. The rest would have had minimal change, because there simply were not the cars.

I just do not see how the stock classes were damaged to any great extent. And when you add the intangibles of SK2 the positives go off the chart. Everyone is amazed at how close this race has been. The femininity... er... I mean enthusiasm of the participants in this class alone made it worth it. Certainly most agree that it increased participation, because people could compete when they came out, rather than roll over in bed and go 'what's the use?'. Once again, you should add in the money saved on tires. The stock people decided on what works, they voted with their feet.

There are arguments (small tiny ones, about the size of Bob's driving skills) for getting rid of other local classes. But the success of SK is beyond doubt. And the actual impact on stock classes is more perception than reality.


nalbar

[RandyC]

To be clear for anyone else that cares, I am not arguing that newer classes are a bad idea. Or that street tired classes save money or not. Or about how many trophies the region buys (this is often a bad argument as more people in a class would increase the trophy depth there). Or about year end trophies. Or numbers of people that stayed in class for the year. Or anything else.

And again, I am for the ST classes. That is not my point either.

My points still however stand. People will buy cars to run in certain classes (not everyone, specially not as often the new people). You can't use the numbers from this event or this year, to show how many could have run in stock vs ST. That is not good science. :) The changes happened way before this year.

Back in the 90s, the stock classes were often 15-20 cars deep. I ran in them. They are not anymore.

If we only had 3 classes... let's say a stock class, prepared class, and a mod class. That would really suck for many reasons. But there would be the positives of large classes right? As I said... nothing is 100% positive or negative.

[nalbar]

Also to be clear;

I am using Randy's post to address what I feel are misconceptions about the SK classes that OTHER people hold. I am not aiming at Randy, per se. He just happened to be the one that posted.

It's all really aimed at Bob.

Did I mention that Bob moved to IS1 for the 'competition' and got owned by an 18 year old with three whole events under his belt, in a AS car? If I forgot to mention it, there it is.

Lesson; be careful what you wish for.


nalbar

[RandyC]

One other disadvantage, a real one I deal with.

SCCA "Hey ChaseCam... glad you could sponsor the runoffs. So you are awarding prize money to each class". "Umm.. how many is that?" "26 classes"

Ouch.

Same with ProSolo. We ended up deciding to not pay out to each class for this reason. There were too many of them.

[nalbar]

The thing about nationally rather than local is that the SCCA has no intention at all in removing ANY classes. That was addressed at a meeting I attended where after the SCCA SEB suggested more street tire classes (SM-ST) someone asked when the SCCA was going to start removing classes. Kathy B. responded 'Never'.

You could hear a pin drop.


nalbar

[Steve35]

froggy here goes

Is SU (local class) beyond the development allowed in SP (national class)?

SU is like Randy said, ANYTHING on DOT tires. Go buy a F1 car and put some V710’s on it and have fun.

How does a local class like IS or SU get "born"

All you have to do is ask. The IS classes were first run in 1993 or earlier I believe. They came about for the need of a class between stock and street-prepared. Stock class is well, “Stock” and Street prepared isn’t “Street”
So for the racer who wanted to still have a street legal car and modify it , the class was welcome.

Who ran in the classes those years?

I did, as well as many people who didn’t want to run nationally. I had a road racing RX7 that ran IS-2

Do local classes get phased out (like national classes) if no one enters them for a while?

In the old days of SDAA the Tech Committee would have monthly meeting to address this. Today? No, but it should go thru a review. IS-3 hasn’t been run in a while unless you count Mark Duesrt running the Honda once in 2008.

So many questions only an SDR historian will know.

I’m not a historian, but I’ve been autocrossing here since April of 1974, that count?

I’m all for local option classes that fill the need of is membership. SK is a great example.

Why are the stock classes down in numbers? Many reason’s, but I feel the biggest one is the lack of a tire exclusion rule. Hoosier used to be banned from all stock classes. But as I’ve said before it’s hard to make tire rules, other than size limits.

[Dov]

The thing about nationally rather than local is that the SCCA has no intention at all in removing ANY classes. That was addressed at a meeting I attended where after the SCCA SEB suggested more street tire classes (SM-ST) someone asked when the SCCA was going to start removing classes. Kathy B. responded 'Never'.

You could hear a pin drop.


nalbar

'Street tire stock' classes are common in many regions. I think what eventually MIGHT happen is that the SCCA will catch onto this fact. Since these classes are often more popular than stock classes it would make sense to designate a 140tw rule in stock class. That would instantly eliminate a need for local sk1 and sk2 type classes. Some people may hate that idea.... but I think that it would save a lot of people a lot of money (and probably put Hoosier out of business).

[zo7vette]

The thing about nationally rather than local is that the SCCA has no intention at all in removing ANY classes. That was addressed at a meeting I attended where after the SCCA SEB suggested more street tire classes (SM-ST) someone asked when the SCCA was going to start removing classes. Kathy B. responded 'Never'.

You could hear a pin drop.


nalbar

BP - RIP

Never say never

[RandyC]

Plus it is in the rulebook. Not enough entrants at Nationals and you are on probation. Continued and your class is gone.

[nalbar]

I am not sure of your point Dov, but I will address this;


'Street tire stock' classes are common in many regions. I think what eventually MIGHT happen is that the SCCA will catch onto this fact.

Trust me, the SCCA is well aware of the importance of street tire classes. The main point of the previously mentioned meeting was the SCCA ENCOURAGING such classes in order to increase overall participation. The SCCA looks at them as entry level classes. They asked all regions to stand up and explain to the others what such classes they provided. SM-ST was by far the most popular. Our version (which we out right stole from LA) was actually pretty rare. The SCCA has no desire to get regions to drop something like SK1 and SK2, just the opposite. It's why the SCCA allowed SK1 and SK2 to be run in last years San Diego Tour (and I assume next years), because they know their value.

The reason the SCCA is more interested in SM-ST is because it has a greater chance of becoming a full SCCA class ... SM rules with street tires is a simple thing. SK1 or SK2 (or their version of it) has little to no such chance because the SCCA avoids indexed classes. They are recruiting tools to eventually put people in 'real' classes that will then bring people to Nationals (which is the SCCA's main interest) and/or into Tours.

The SCCA has little interest in what regions do locally (as far as classes), as long as they fit within long range goals. All regions are allowed to run, OR NOT RUN, any SCCA class they want, as long as a SCCA Solo legal car as some place to run. They do not care where you put them, just so long as you put them somewhere. You can exclude classes, excluding allowed cars is very very difficult, and you cannot arbitrarily exclude drivers at all.

Like usual, I agree with the SCCA. There is no 'too many classes' issue. There is a participation issue. Everything we do should be aimed at increasing participation. Bob's perceived problem in SS would be solved if we had more SS cars, not less classes.


nalbar

[Steve35]

'Street tire stock' classes are common in many regions. I think what eventually MIGHT happen is that the SCCA will catch onto this fact. Since these classes are often more popular than stock classes it would make sense to designate a 140tw rule in stock class. That would instantly eliminate a need for local sk1 and sk2 type classes. Some people may hate that idea.... but I think that it would save a lot of people a lot of money (and probably put Hoosier out of business).

This is the fallacy of the 140 tread wear class

Just going to tire rack and checking 205/50x15

RE-11’s $118 each
XS’s $88 each
They don’t’ sell R1R’s but I do at $133 each
All will need shaving if you’re running Nationally. Extra 20 per tire.

V710’s $210 each
A6’s $ 195 each
Don’t’ need shaving
The A6’s and R1R’s are the two fastest in their respective tread wear classes
Both tires go “off “ before wearing out.
Savings? $32 per tire

Now lets look at a 245/45x17
RE-11’s $183 each
XS’s $122 each
Again they don’t’ sell R1R’s but I do at $184 each
And again all will need shaving if you want to be competitive nationally. Extra 20 per tire.

V710’s $190 each
A6’s $245 each
Hmm.. the R1R’s are now more expensive than V710’s but not the A6's

Now it gets scary
The oem sizes for a C5 Z06
265/40x17
295/35x18
Goodyear Supercar tires 220 tw are…$309 front and $355 rear each!

And we still have to save them, $20 each more.

Hoosier doesn’t make the factory sizes so we go with a 275/40 front at $280 each and the rear we’ll use a 295/30x18 at $322 each.
V710 are 275/40 front at $248 with the rear using a 305/30 costing $319each .

The 40 tread wear tires are now cheaper. :(

KEEP SK A LOCAL CLASS

Gary T it's your turn now

[nalbar]

Plus it is in the rulebook. Not enough entrants at Nationals and you are on probation. Continued and your class is gone.

Gone from Nationals.

Right?


nalbar

[nalbar]

Now it gets scary
The oem sizes for a C5 Z06
265/40x17
295/35x18
Goodyear Supercar tires 220 tw are…$309 front and $355 rear each!

And we still have to save them, $20 each more.

Hoosier doesn’t make the factory sizes so we go with a 275/40 front at $280 each and the rear we’ll use a 295/30x18 at $322 each.
V710 are 275/40 front at $248 with the rear using a 305/30 costing $319each .

Good lord.

If you were looking for a reason SS/corvettes are not well represented, there you go.


nalbar

[RandyC]

Gone from Nationals.

Right?


nalbar

Nope. Gone all together.

[Steve35]

old thread

http://www.sdsolo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1892&highlight=2009+Stock+classes+killed

[froggy47]

Thanks guys, especially Steve C. as he actually READ MY POST and ANSWERED THE POST.

Warren, dude, I didn't post about SS class AT ALL! I've moved on. But you are my pal & are allowed to drift my threads to satisfy any agenda (or no agenda).

I will respond to one item re IS1 contest, it was a blast running vs. Andy D & congrats to him on the win.

I was fighting setup problems both Sat and Sun (due to the IS changes) & JK was nice enough to give me some much needed shock help. Thanks Jeff.

I am liking IS1 as you can actually fiddle with the car more & learn how setup works (or doesn't). That's terrific fun to me.

SU, I guess not, SOOO wide open, but I want to keep my z "reversible" to stock. Probably 2010 will sell at season end & find a new ride. Maybe an early GT3 will be affordable by then.
Here's a thought, trial balloon, would any of the truly knowledgeable SD guys be willing to put on a SETUP SEMINAR? I'd pay to attend one. I'm sure others would.

The trouble with many of the books, and some of the hit/miss advice I have gotten is that you get on small piece of info based on what worked on someone Else's car & try it on yours & it can be a disaster. The technical books are either too "engineering based" like how to build a race car from scratch, of road race focused. What the suspension is doing in a 100 mph sweeper. Nothing really autox specific that I have found.

I am talking tires/shocks/bars/alignment/spacers/ride height/rake. Basic stuff but integrated by a panel of experts, some Cliff notes, maybe pizza, Friday night chalk talk & Sat practical, bring your tools to mess around with setup. I have Smart Strings & Smart Camber & we could set up scales etc.

Not to expect a turnout like a novice school, but charge more than a novice school to cover the lot etc. We could probably even do it on a smaller lot if it were cheaper (Knott's?)

Anyway, just a thought. Our practice days are really not designed to do setup work. There was one club who used to do work once/run all day but that hasn't happened in a while.

:shift:

[Dov]

I'm not sure how much I argee with your "street tire fallacy" statement steve. People that compete at a national level are the exception rather than the rule in this sport. I realize that we have more champions per capita then most regions which distorts that locally. Just because someone spends a lot of money doesn't make a class in general expensive. Every tire in the class other than the toyos (and the old Falkens) can easily last a season and not more. My kumho's have seen 23 events on 3 different cars with an average of probably 8 runs per event plus a driving school. Most of those more than 200 runs were on a camber challenged Sentra. I plan on getting another 3-4 events out of them. I'd like to see a set of hoosiers do that...

If someone wants to spend money on Toyos that last 60 runs to gain 0.2 that's fine... but in most regions that's very expensive overkill.

[nalbar]

Warren, dude, I didn't post about SS class AT ALL! I've moved on. But you are my pal & are allowed to drift my threads to satisfy any agenda (or no agenda).



:)


I knew you would understand.



nalbar

[-W-]

SU is a diverse class with cars at different levels of prep. You could run a C5 as is and still find someone to race with. With a C5 on decent R-compound tires, driver skill will be the first bottleneck to address. From there, you could upgrade the wheels, then suspension, maybe lighten up the car a bit.

[Sebastian R.]

I apologize for taking the topic further off course. Dov, don't forget that Stock doesn't mean factory equipped, just like every other category it is a preparation level. Part of that prep is tires.

[froggy47]

This is the fallacy of the 140 tread wear class
.
.
.
.
.


The 40 tread wear tires are now cheaper. :(

KEEP SK A LOCAL CLASS

Gary T it's your turn now

I agree with Steve on prices of 140's vs dot r.

I think if you polled the SK people more than a few of them would say it's the convenience (of not having to buy extra rims and then having to swap wheels out every time you run) as much or more than the prices.

Damn, I'm drifting my own thread.

:confused:

[itrbruce]

Out of my own curiosity, how many out there are running their super Toyo "street tires" around as their daily driving tires?