2006 PAX Numbers

[freshspecbluegt]

New PAX Numbers for next year.

http://www.scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/rtp2006.html

Looks like Saturday is going to be my last chance to try to crack the top twenty in the Celica and I'm on Azenis for the last event, oh well. +.013 for next year ouch! Looks like the Mini's were classed right after all, Boo! :mad: :eek:

[frosty]

I'm confused...

A stock Porsche 944 8v is in ES, which has a pax of 0.806. As I understand it, it's 2.5L engine qualify it for STS2, which has a pax of 0.802.

So... if I modded one my PAX goes down?:confused:

[woodrufj]

STS2 has a displacement limit of 1.8 or 1.9.

Don't forget ST classes restrict tires much more than stock class.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[MX5bob]

I'm confused...

A stock Porsche 944 8v is in ES, which has a pax of 0.806. As I understand it, it's 2.5L engine qualify it for STS2, which has a pax of 0.802.

So... if I modded one my PAX goes down?:confused:

If it was legal for ST2, you'd be on Street Tires instead of R comps.

[frosty]

STS2 has a displacement limit of 1.8 or 1.9.

Don't forget ST classes restrict tires much more than stock class.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

Ok. The place I've look at for class info, http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/ , seems to be rather vague on the STS2 and didn't include that part.



If it was legal for ST2, you'd be on Street Tires instead of R comps.

That's another thing that I've wondered about. Every stock rules listing I've looked at says "Most street legal tires that will fit the mounted wheels and stock bodywork" or (from the SCCA 2005 Solo Rules) "No racing tire or recap (on any casing) may be used" and "Each tire must have non-zero measurable tread depth."

Either I'm confused, or I'm misunderstanding some terminology...

[woodrufj]

The term "Race tire" is a little ambigous, as is the term "Slicks"

ST classes restrict you to DOT tires of treadwear 140+ (Commonly called Street or Non-R Tires, Kumho MXs, Azenis etc). The width is restricted to 225 for STS and STS2, 245 for STX, 245 for AWD cars in STU and 275 for other STU cars. (there are rim width restrictions for STS and STX).

Stock, Street Prepared and Street Mod Classes have no treadwear restriction, but still need to be DOT approved (Commonly called R-compounds, V710s, Hoosiers etc). Any width that fits. Stock cars have to have stock sized wheels. The tread pattern on these is minimal so they often get improperly called slicks.

Prepared and Mod Classes have some restricitions on rubber, but DOT is not a requirement (Commonly called Race Tires or Slicks).

On top of all this are some availibility requirements that don't come into play very often.

Moultons probably says STS2 has same rules as STS, except for...

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[frosty]

Stock, Street Prepared and Street Mod Classes have no treadwear restriction, but still need to be DOT approved (Commonly called R-compounds, V710s, Hoosiers etc).


So they are tires with extremely low treadwear ratings, hardly any tread, and can be used on normal roads... How much does a set cost? How many races do they tend to last in the hands of an experienced driver?

[woodrufj]

So they are tires with extremely low treadwear ratings, hardly any tread, and can be used on normal roads... How much does a set cost? How many races do they tend to last in the hands of an experienced driver?
V700 = Treadwear 50
V710 = Treadwear 30
Hoosiers = Treadwear 0!

Legal for street use, but not recommended.

In my experiance
V700s, about 125 runs to cord, ~$600-900/set
V710s, about 125 runs to cord, but heat cycled out at 50 ~$650-1100/set
hoosiers, about 75 runs to cord, but heat cycled out at 30. ~$800-1400/set

Wait until your fast enough. No reason to buy 3seconds worth of tires when there's 10seconds worth of driver to improve.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[frosty]

Wait until your fast enough. No reason to buy 3seconds worth of tires when there's 10seconds worth of driver to improve.


Definately (There might be more than 10 seconds of driver...). I'm just trying to understand the classes. At some point I want to make a run at being competitive, and do it for as cheaply as possible.

Is the difference between street tires like, say, the Falkens and the R-compounds really as big as 3 seconds? That's huge...

[woodrufj]

Is the difference between street tires like, say, the Falkens and the R-compounds really as big as 3 seconds? That's huge...
Between the best Street tires and the worst R tires, probably nothing.

Between the best Street tires and the best R tires (like those mentioned), probably 1.5-4 seconds over a 60sec course depending on course and car.

Between the worst Street tire (OEM/econo tires) and the best R tires, 10+ seconds.

The 'Street Tire' requirement is relitively new (~5 years). Its slightly flawed since there is no treadwear standard, just guidlines. Look up the Pirelli PZero Corsa on tire rack and tell me if you notice anything odd about the treadwears.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[frosty]

Its slightly flawed since there is no treadwear standard, just guidlines. Look up the Pirelli PZero Corsa on tire rack and tell me if you notice anything odd about the treadwears.


Uhh... the tread wear rating is 140 AA A. I don't think I've seen a tread wear rating that included letters after it. But then the miles they are saying they've driven on them aren't the 10k or so a set of Azenis tires should last...

[woodrufj]

Uhh... the tread wear rating is 140 AA A.
Did you notice the tread wear of all the other sizes?

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[frosty]

Did you notice the tread wear of all the other sizes?

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

Wtf, it says it's assigned 140 by the description but the detailed specs show 60 for all but one. Are there people who want to run ST_ and accidentally buying the 60s? Or are they really all 60s and it's just stamped 140 for one?

[woodrufj]

Or are they really all 60s and it's just stamped 140 for one?That's what I was getting at, and that's why this tire is on the ST exclusion list.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[frosty]

This discussion has cleared up a lot for me.

I'm still on my stock RE92s that come with. They have a tread rating of 160, which sounds like it'd be sticky but really isn't. They aren't great in snow, nor dry, and they've slipped for me a few times in hardly-wet. The tire size is a weird 205/55 16, which seems harder to find (the Kumos you mentioned had that, but the Azenis don't). At some point, those tires will be run through as most TireRack reviews put the lifespan around 22k and I'm past that (possibly sooner than later if I'm doing autox).

Do you know of a tire that would be good for me to learn on?
- Needs to last atleast 1 year (season of autox + 15,000 miles on the road)
- Needs to not cost an arm and a leg
- Grips well but I can learn from it when it's starting to slip and where it looses it's grip (this would help teach a novice, right?)

[Tyson]

This discussion has cleared up a lot for me.


Do you know of a tire that would be good for me to learn on?
- Needs to last atleast 1 year (season of autox + 15,000 miles on the road)
- Needs to not cost an arm and a leg
- Grips well but I can learn from it when it's starting to slip and where it looses it's grip (this would help teach a novice, right?)

With all those requirements I'd go with the Kumho Victoracer V700--reasonably sticky and will last a decent amount of time--and are also forgiving of a little abuse. The also have a variety of sizes. :) This is if you're getting a set of dedicated autox tires like all the other stock class freaks, myself included.

If you are going with only one set to drive on the street and autox, the Falken Azenis 615 would be my choice. I have a few autox's, a couple practices and 22,000 street miles on them before they wore out. They heat cycled out much before that, but there was still plenty of tread left.

[Andrew]

With all those requirements I'd go with the Kumho Victoracer V700--reasonably sticky and will last a decent amount of time--and are also forgiving of a little abuse.
This is very car-dependent, as I know many an autocrosser who absolutely despise the Victoracer V700. I'd post pics of my heavily chunked V700s, but I can't seem to find them. The original Victoracers were better tires for most cars, in terms of lifetime.

But that's all moot because of Frosty's first requirement -- "Needs to last atleast 1 year (season of autox + 15,000 miles on the road)"

The Toyo Proxes RA1 might fit the bill, though, depending on what class he competes in.

[frosty]

If you are going with only one set to drive on the street and autox, the Falken Azenis 615 would be my choice. I have a few autox's, a couple practices and 22,000 street miles on them before they wore out. They heat cycled out much before that, but there was still plenty of tread left.

I'd like to stay in stock. Azenis 615 tires look like a good choice, but they don't have a set in my car's stock size(205/55 16). For a track day only tire, I'm fine with a lower profile on stock rims, but that won't work for a daily driver.



The Toyo Proxes RA1 might fit the bill, though, depending on what class he competes in.

I looked online and the price of the tire for my size (205/55 16) was over $200 per tire. Are there good places to get competition tires locally (especially for ones that aren't listed on TireRack)?

[rodger]

Kumho MX is sold in your size. Tirerack has it for $92. Motonishi won Nationals on that tire at least once.

[woodrufj]

Kumho MX is sold in your size.
This is an excellent choice, and a steal at $92. Despite its sucess, I don't think they're quite as fast as the Azenis RT-615. But if you have to have your stock size tires (not a class requirement!), the 615s are out. A little lower profile wouldn't be a bad thing except for a rougher ride.

If you happen to come across the Azenis RT-215 (out of production), don't buy them. They're probably the best street autoX tire still, but for daily driving through the winter, not good.

15K is pushing in . I'd lower your expectations to 10K.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[frosty]

Kumho MX is sold in your size. Tirerack has it for $92. Motonishi won Nationals on that tire at least once.


Ok, kick ass. Who/What is Motonishi?


This is an excellent choice, and a steal at $92. Despite its sucess, I don't think they're quite as fast as the Azenis RT-615. But if you have to have your stock size tires (not a class requirement!), the 615s are out. A little lower profile wouldn't be a bad thing except for a rougher ride.


The only reason I need them to be the same is for the speedometer to stay constant and to not hurt my fuel economy. Ride is (mostly) irrelevent.



15K is pushing in . I'd lower your expectations to 10K.


It's a target for how much I drive in a year. Mainly, I need to not have a 3k set of tires. Although, if they are under $100 each, then 10k comes out to about the same money.

[rodger]

Ok, kick ass. Who/What is Motonishi?

Some guy named Ken who drives a crappy, old Civic :D









(2x STS National Champion who lives in LA and drives down here)

[Andrew]

I looked online and the price of the tire for my size (205/55 16) was over $200 per tire. Are there good places to get competition tires locally (especially for ones that aren't listed on TireRack)?

You must learn the original RA1 mantra: "Toyos suck for a very long time."

And know that it's not really true (the suck part. They do last a very long time). In fact, they get better as they get older (as the tread blocks wear down). I've gone two seasons on one set (no street driving, mind), and I'm a member of the Randy Chase School of Autocross (there's a reason he had 'Spins' on his license plate for a while :p).

However, the MXs sound like they fit your requirements best right now.

Oh, and I'd recommend doing the math on the speedo error before dismissing non-stock tire sizes. It's usually not that significant.

[cshodges]

http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

This handy calculator will show you just how far off a particular tire size is from stock.

[frosty]

It actually wasn't that significant. If I got 205/40 sized tires, it'd be off by 4 or 5 mph when reading 60 mph. The difference to mpg should be small then.

I think if I got autox-only tires, I might get a low side-wall and take the lowered gear ratio (I've got a turbo and if I'm not past 3500 coming out of a turn, I have to wait for my power).

This has been extremely informative. Thanks to all.:D

[MX5bob]

You must learn the original RA1 mantra: "Toyos suck for a very long time."

And know that it's not really true (the suck part. They do last a very long time). In fact, they get better as they get older (as the tread blocks wear down). I've gone two seasons on one set (no street driving, mind), and I'm a member of the Randy Chase School of Autocross (there's a reason he had 'Spins' on his license plate for a while :p).

However, the MXs sound like they fit your requirements best right now.

Oh, and I'd recommend doing the math on the speedo error before dismissing non-stock tire sizes. It's usually not that significant.

Randy had Spins on his plate because he drove an MR2!

[CivicTom]

My MX's end up lasting about 18 months of daily driving and a bunch of autocrossing. I'm defecting tho and going to the 615's for the summer so I can ambush the Chicago region STS crowd. My advice is to get a set of dedicated autoX wheels, I didn't and I really regreted it.

[frosty]

My MX's end up lasting about 18 months of daily driving and a bunch of autocrossing. I'm defecting tho and going to the 615's for the summer so I can ambush the Chicago region STS crowd. My advice is to get a set of dedicated autoX wheels, I didn't and I really regreted it.

When I get serious about the championships, then I'll get dedicated wheels for the R-compounds. For now, it's about marginal utility: R-compounds cost more than they will help me learn (and I have much to learn) and I don't want to spend money to get a second set of autox wheels until I'm serious.