Buying cars on Craigslist

[X12]

Hey yall,

I am currently looking to buy a Miata and I stumbled upon one that was pretty much a steal. 1996, 55,000 miles, and selling for $4500. So I emailed the guy and he responded today with a pretty sketchy email. I read it over a few times and I am a little hesitant to go through with the deal. His email reads:

Hi,

Thanks for emailing me. I would like to tell you that the car is in perfect condition, no damages have been made to the car.
I have all the documents and service records. I'm a US citizen but currently i am in Stockholm, Sweden with my family and i need the money to finish the lease on the car I have now.
I hope this has no negative effect on you because shipment is included in the buy price and will cost you nothing more. I must tell you that i`m selling this beautiful car not because i want to, but because i have to because when i moved in Europe a few weeks ago i didn't know about the taxes to register a US car and the expensive gas. The car was bought in US, so it is US standards, so stay cool it´s perfect compatible to your standards and you will don´t have to pay more duty taxes on it.
And this is an impediment for me to sell it here because, first, the needs to have EURO3, it will be very expensive for me to register it here and besides in Sweden the car have the steering wheel on the right side, so i can drive it here. I have to pay a very expensive duty taxes. The car it is still registered in States. Stay cool I had taken good care of this beauty.
It will be shipped with Lufthansa Air Cargo, and will be on your door in 5 max 7 days. When i will have craigslist confirmation,i will ship the car to you. If you want to continue,please send me your full name and your shipping address so I let Craigslist know that you are interested . You will receive an email from them instructing you about how to send payment and they'll release the funds to me only after you receive and inspect the car. I think that this is a fair way to make business and I hope that you will agree. I will not touch your money until you receive, inspect and approve the car the car.

And hoping that i kept your attention,
Please reply as soon as possible.

Regards
His full name in bold letters

He doesn't live too far away so I'm thinking I should just inspect the car in person once he gets back instead of hassling through Craigslist. What do you think? The more I read it the more skeptical I become. At that price and for what he's offering (included shipment fee), I really don't know how credible this guy is. Is this a scam in the making?

-Andrew

[nalbar]

Andrew,

Forget him unless you can see the car. That is all pretty sketchy.

Check around, you can find decent Miata's for less than that, but with more miles.


nalbar

[frosty]

If you think that's a good deal, I've got a Nigerian banker who wants to meet you. He said something about just needing a sponsor to immigrate to the US... :D

Even if it is ligit, the guy is a moron. He moved all that way and suddenly figures out which side of the road they drive on and what it takes to actually transport a car? Hey... maybe he'd be interested in meeting that Nigerian banker... :p

[MX5bob]

If you think that's a good deal, I've got a Nigerian banker who wants to meet you. He said something about just needing a sponsor to immigrate to the US... :D

Even if it is ligit, the guy is a moron. He moved all that way and suddenly figures out which side of the road they drive on and what it takes to actually transport a car? Hey... maybe he'd be interested in meeting that Nigerian banker... :p

Sweden drives on the right like here. But he didn't know gasoline costs a fortune there? What a maroon! :p

[cshodges]

I'll bet the payment mechanism involves you wiring money, in which case it'll be long gone before you never see the car.

Craigslist is a good resource in addition to classifieds, penny saver, auto trader, etc. to find a car, but I still want to go touch it and take it around the block before making an offer.

[LarryC]

Run away as fast as you can.

[froggy47]

Scam written all over it.

[X12]

maybe he'd be interested in meeting that Nigerian banker... :p

Hahahah. Yah, you guys are right. Thanks a lot.

Warren, maybe I should just invest in a Matrix....:)

-Andrew

[nalbar]

HEHE,

I'm not sure a Matrix is a great auto-x car Andrew. But if your car is not working you can co-drive mine.

Did you try autotrader? I know I have seen some miata's there for pretty cheap. Don't let miles scare you, the cars run forever.


http://www.autotrader.com./fyc/searchresults.jsp?search_type=used&make=MAZDA&distance=75&model=MIATA&address=92054&certified=&a


::EDIT:: ..stupid autotrader linked to ALL Miata's Andrew. Just go to the last pages for the cheaper ones. DOZENS.

Cheap, decent Miata's are quite common. They are the proto-typical sports car that older guys buy and then let sit in the driveway. So many older ones have very few miles and yet can be bought cheap.


nalbar

[MX5bob]

Either the 1.6 or the 1.8 Miata motor is a bullet-proof gem. Already has bottom oil spray on the pistons, which is why it's routine for those running forced induction to get over 200 rwhp. :D

[X12]

Actually I was kidding about the Matrix Warren. = ) But thanks for the link. Hey where is area for that zip code? 92054? That's a good search. I've tried autotrader already but didn't find good results like these. Thanks again Warren.

-Andrew

[nalbar]

Always expand the search to at least 75 miles.



nalbar

[JamesWilson]

Forget it. I purchased my Mazda on CraigsList, but he was in University City....makes it easy to verify car, owner, etc.

I had posted my old RX-7 online for sale, and got an offer from a European guy. I get bored easily, so I baited him in and had him send me money and he arranged for pickup. He sent me (via registered air mail) 3 clearly fake money orders drawn on a legitimate US bank that had been absorbed by another bank in the late '80's, for much in excess of the purchase price, and he "wanted the rest returned to him".

The documents were then forwarded to the FBI office in Kearny Mesa, where they were found to be part of a counterfeit ring and actually the money orders were real, but stolen 20 years ago from South America.

It was fun while it lasted, but you have to pretty much treat all offers from Europe as fraudulent.

We have a lot of international customers (in fact I have been dealing with a guy from Sweden this week with his 996 GT3R endurance car), and it takes a LOT of documentation to verify who is who. If they're not willing to provide it, then they can forget it.

Good luck, and steer clear of this guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nik]

I got my Vespa off craigslist, but it was in normal heights and I was able to check it out in person first. A fellow San Diego scooterist just picked up a Rpackage Miata super cheap off craigslist because the seller thought it was base model since it had no power steering:eek: You can be expecting him in ES soon.

There's good deals to be had on craigslist but there's a lot of scams too. Just don't buy anything you can't check out in person, its just good plain sense.

[Roostie]

That is SO scamarific! The transport he mentions would cost more than the money he's asking.

And the bit about right hand drive in Sweden ... this guy isn't even a good scam artist.

I had the shoe on the other foot before; I sold a car through eBay to a guy in Ontario, Canada. The autoshipping company just charged an increased fee for taking the car through customs.

[dwkfym]

hey,
I've seen that exact same email except this one was for a 9000 dollar 2001 BMW.

[autox_a_crv]

I got my Vespa off craigslist, but it was in normal heights and I was able to check it out in person first. A fellow San Diego scooterist just picked up a Rpackage Miata super cheap off craigslist because the seller thought it was base model since it had no power steering:eek: You can be expecting him in ES soon.

There's good deals to be had on craigslist but there's a lot of scams too. Just don't buy anything you can't check out in person, its just good plain sense.


NIK,,
What Vespa do u have? I have 1974 PrimaVera 125. Havent ride it for 2 years now.

[nik]

NIK,,
What Vespa do u have? I have 1974 PrimaVera 125. Havent ride it for 2 years now.

1975 Rally 200. You should get it going again; they just beg to be ridden.

[CNaylor]

Poping out of lurk mode to cause problems again.....




Your posting name, and avitar photo obviously indicate you autocross a CRV. I guess the officials in SD are a bit lax on the rules, as you vehicle is specifically excluded as a autocrossable vehicle. See Rule 3.1 3rd paragraph. It states that SUV's, Minivans, and 4wd trucks are excluded for our events.

returning too lurk mode

Craig

[RandyC]

Poping out of lurk mode to cause problems again.....



Your posting name, and avitar photo obviously indicate you autocross a CRV. I guess the officials in SD are a bit lax on the rules, as you vehicle is specifically excluded as a autocrossable vehicle. See Rule 3.1 3rd paragraph. It states that SUV's, Minivans, and 4wd trucks are excluded for our events.

returning too lurk mode

Craig
Rule-



Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track, including SUV's, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded (e.g. Suzuki Samurai, Jeep CJ Series, and GEO Tracker/Suzuki Sidekick). Extra caution should be exercised with non-traditional vehicles, e.g. trucks using racing slicks.
The CRV is not a true SUV as far the intent of these rules. It is more of a cross over vehicle.

I think there is an interpretation issue here... are all SUVs, Minivans, and 4WD trucks banned? Or only the ones that have a high center of gravity and a narrow track?

Keep in mind that Howard Duncan autocrossed a Honda Odyssey at Nationals.

[Neal]

That is a very common scam scenario. I have seen multiple posts on other forums with almost the exact same story.

[nalbar]

And this particular CRV is lowered.


It's run at events put on by every club in SD, with no problems.


And you might want to look under his tag, he is responsible enough to join a club.



nalbar

[autox_a_crv]

Thanks everybody,, Im just out there to have fun. Everybody have been such great help,

I always say,, Race what you got!!:D

[CNaylor]

Rule-


The CRV is not a true SUV as far the intent of these rules. It is more of a cross over vehicle.

What exactly is a "true" SUV in your intrepretation.

Frame rails? The excluded Tracker is on a unibody.
4wd? Just about every varity comes in 2 & 4wd.
Seating for x number of people? The Suzuki x90 sat 2, a expedition can seat 8 if you have the front bench.
Full Size? Again the Tracker/Sidekick, just like the Rav4 and CRV, are one of the Cute-ute generation creations.
An extended station wagon look? The CRV has that.
There are SUV's with leaf springs, and fully indepedant suspensions.

Personally if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....

Most "cross overs" are crosses of SUV's and Minivans. Both are on the exclusion list. I don't beleve that by mixing the two you un-mini/Suv the vehicle.

I'll admit what I think is an error in the rule is the 4wd truck rule. Every manufacture that I'm aware of will sell you a 2wd truck that looks like (in ride height and narrow tires) its 4wd bretheren. How does the ability of locking/ or full time usage of the front axle make a difference. In reality, that 4wd gear is lowering the trucks center of gravity.

As always, it's been fun.

Craig

[cshodges]

The wording of the rules is definately bad. The intent, though, is to disallow vehicles that are likely to rollover. The final answer usually lies with the onsite saftey steward.

[RandyC]

Craig, You missed the main point

[Philc]

this thread is waaaaaaay off topic.

I was a target of a scam not too long also also- they said ebay would hold the car and act as a proxy between me and him.

the problem is, people fall for this crap. thats why they do it.

see http://philspc.com/index.php?id=5

and

http://philspc.com/index.php?id=7

I doubt anything happened to him, I just enjoyed wasting his time, and making him think he's getting a check...

[ULLLOSE]

Rule-


The CRV is not a true SUV as far the intent of these rules. It is more of a cross over vehicle.

I think there is an interpretation issue here... are all SUVs, Minivans, and 4WD trucks banned? Or only the ones that have a high center of gravity and a narrow track?

Keep in mind that Howard Duncan autocrossed a Honda Odyssey at Nationals.

The CRV is an SUV, check the Honda website or any dealer. The CRV is excluded from SCCA solo events. The rules list SUV, not just some SUV's all of them. The only exception at this point in time is the GMC Typhoon which is listed in FS.

Howard doing laps for a TV camera is a far cry from running one as a entrant in an event.

3.1 Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track,
including SUV’s, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded
(e.g. Suzuki Samurai, Jeep CJ series, and GEO Tracker/Suzuki
Sidekick). Extra caution should be exercised with non-traditional
vehicles, e.g. trucks using racing slicks.

[woodrufj]

I sure believe the intent is such that "High Center of gravity and narrow track" is the rule, the list that follows that is potential examples. I've seen more than one SUV that has a lower risk of rolling over than half the stock cars.

And if we're going to take a literal approach to this paragraph, no where does it say "Unless otherwise listed". Which means the typhoon and syclone (4wd pickup) would be out too.

Another problem with the literal approach: How many people think I'm "exercising extra caution" when I'm racing the Dakota? Not the ones running for their lives when things little wiggly thats for sure.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota


The CRV is an SUV, check the Honda website or any dealer. The CRV is excluded from SCCA solo events. The rules list SUV, not just some SUV's all of them. The only exception at this point in time is the GMC Typhoon which is listed in FS.

Howard doing laps for a TV camera is a far cry from running one as a entrant in an event.

3.1 Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track,
including SUV’s, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded
(e.g. Suzuki Samurai, Jeep CJ series, and GEO Tracker/Suzuki
Sidekick). Extra caution should be exercised with non-traditional
vehicles, e.g. trucks using racing slicks.

[jason]

How many people think I'm "exercising extra caution" when I'm racing the Dakota? Not the ones running for their lives when things little wiggly thats for sure.


I think I will protest you for breaking the rules next time I see the Dakota. That would be funny. :D

[ULLLOSE]

And if we're going to take a literal approach to this paragraph, no where does it say "Unless otherwise listed". Which means the typhoon and syclone (4wd pickup) would be out too.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

Both of those are specifically classed and are not subject to the exclusion. You can try to twist it any way you want, bottom line CRV is excluded. If you feel that is not right I suggest you write a letter to the SEB.

[MX5bob]

There was someone in the Midwest running a Subie Forester w/the STi motor in DP.

[autox_a_crv]

My only question is " Why now"? This is not my first season, I did all the pratices last year without any problems. I even did the pratices over the weekend. My best time was 69.002 with only 8 runs. I could made it into the 68.00. best ran out of time. I had to wait for a while before someone took over working for me.

[ULLLOSE]

My only question is " Why now"? This is not my first season, I did all the pratices last year without any problems. I even did the pratices over the weekend. My best time was 69.002 with only 8 runs. I could made it into the 68.00. best ran out of time. I had to wait for a while before someone took over working for me.

The burden of making sure you are in the correct class, or in a vehicle that can compete, falls on the competitor. However in this case tech at the very least should have noticed when they were doing your safety check that you were in an excluded vehicle. One would also think the safety steward should have taken notice when he/she saw and SUV on course.
If you have documentation that counters Honda's classification of the CRV as an SUV or if you feel the mods you have made should allow you to run your SUV send a letter to SCCA and get them to approve it.
You may have slipped under the radar by only doing practice days, that however does not make it ok. Sorry.

[nalbar]

Oh wow.

I can't believe someone can run 10+ events with no problems at all and people seem to want to run him off.

Unbelievable.

The car is lowered, it's only about two inches taller than mine. Am I next?

Another example of people caring SOOOO much about what others do, even when it has NO impact on them.

Why don't we make a rule to take all the fun out of auto-x? And run all the non-competitive 'fun seekers' off? And leave it to the 'serious' people. They are such a joy to be around.


nalbar

[autox_a_crv]

I got this off the SDR-SCCA main page,

"While driving on the street, the time span of most emergencies is only a few seconds. Thus the experience of maintaining control becomes a valuable training session. You will develop a sense of timing, judgment, and ability to interpret your vehicle's handling characteristics - at safe speeds and in a safe place. Your experiences at an autocross will enhance your driving ability on the street." by Randy Chase.


THIS IS WHY I WANTED TO AUTOX WITH YOU GUYS. I know my limit of my CRV, I will do nothing to jeopardized my life of my cars life. Im only doing practices to have fun and meet people and also to get out of the house.

Thanks Warren and everbody who is supporting me..

Have a nice day ULLLOSE...

[chaz572]

The car is lowered, it's only about two inches taller than mine. Am I next?

Another example of people caring SOOOO much about what others do, even when it has NO impact on them.

Nalbar, it does affect us. Because if a vehicle that was excluded specifically because it was a rollover risk were to roll over while running at an SCCA-sanctioned event, the SCCA would come down hard on all of SDR for letting it run. We already have to submit our @(*#&%)(@ course designs to them for approval before we can have an event. I'm not eager for further sanctions stemming from a rollover incident, and being the liberty-loving guy you are, I bet you aren't either.

The rule is there because there are vehicles that are rollover risks, and we don't want any rollovers. That's a legitimate intent for a rule, and one I will support. The letter of the rule, as written, may go a little too far, however, and exclude more than is necessary. What's needed here is common sense.

He's beefed up the suspension and lowered it to the point that it's only two inches taller than you car. That counts for something. That definitely reduces its rollover potential. How much? I don't know, and I'm not automotive engineer enough to say. But clearly the letter of the rule doesn't take these fine details into account, nor could it be expected to, lest the rule balloon to dozens of pages. What's needed here is common sense.

Who is the voice of common sense in safety at an event? The safety steward. This is just my piddly two cents, but I'd like to see the safety steward at each event check out the car, and evaluate it for rollover risk. If whoever the safety steward is that day thinks it's fine, then great, let it run. If the safety steward thinks it's too much of a risk, and doesn't want to allow it, then I have to stand behind that too, because it's the safety steward's ass first in line for a kicking if anything goes wrong.

Autox_a_CRV, please understand you're running a controversial vehicle. I've met you, I know you're a great guy, and I like having you at events. I don't want to exclude you personally, and I don't want to exclude any vehicle that's safe to run, in general. But the letter of the rule would appear to be stacked against you, and there are enough people around who are sticklers for the letter of the rule that this issue will always be around. OTOH, you've got a good case for an exception to be made, and there are always enough people around who advocate common sense over strict interpretation that you'll always have people on your side for this issue that will always be around.

I fully realize that what I'm advocating would mean you could run some events and not others, and it would be "for no good reason", and it wouldn't be fair. Safety stewards are just people; they have differing opinions and interpretations, and we have to live with that. Unfortunately, them's the breaks when you're doing something controversial that's hanging out on the ragged edge of "what's allowed".

All I can say is, I hope you hang tight and roll with the punches. If nobody ever pushed the envelope, we'd all be stuck in a little rut with no variety, no vision, and no intellectual growth. And IMHO, that would be far worse than a little controversy and a few delicate balancing acts.

[autox_a_crv]

Thanks chaz572,,

this is why I dont like talking on this forum. There is always someone out there who just dont want me to have fun.
If the safety stewart says dont race,, I will have no problem at all. Now that my CRV is on everbody mind, I bet the next pratices the saftey stewart will say no. Now my question is, can I get my $$$ back for my the anually fee?

[jason]

Please understand that we run under SCCA and need to do our best to stay within their rules. If we bend them for one person, things get out of hand.

I don't think anyone is out to ruin your fun, we are just pointing out the issues. ULLLOSE is in a unique position as he is actually a member of the SCCA Solo Events Board, so you can see where his point of view is coming from. It might be a good idea to start sucking up to him a bit. ;)

[cshodges]

It could be an insurance thing. The rules say no SUV's, the CRV is an SUV. Your car, Warren, is a hatchback. Personally, I don't see a problem with CRV's, but it's not my call to make exceptions.

That said, it looks like we're not the only region with the issue. I managed to locate results from a New Jersey Solo2 club, and they have a novice running a CRV in STS. http://www.autox4u.com/2001results/912001.htm. That's not to say, "they do it so we can."

The rule states: Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track, including SUV’s, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded (e.g. Suzuki Samurai, Jeep CJ series, and GEO Tracker/Suzuki Sidekick). ... The examples are all short wheelbase vehicles notorious for rolling over in a double lane change (read: slalom).

Compared to a Matrix, the CRV is almost a foot longer, a touch wider, and has a 1" longer wheelbase. The height is about 5" taller, and stock ground clearance is 2.2" taller. The CRV in question has been lowered 2". There's definately grounds to allow it as an exception, IMO.

[ULLLOSE]

Don't bother sucking up to me... Nothing personal, I am not out to kill your fun, I am trying to preserve ours. FYI this would go beyond the event safety steward to approve, IMO the only way a non specifically classed SUV will run is with approval from the Natl office.

I do feel bad that you are getting this after you have already run a number of events, someone did not do their job the first time you showed up and it makes for a bad situation now.

You may be surprised, a letter and some pics of your CRV with mods to Howard Duncan may be all it takes to get approval to run.

Howard Duncan VP of Competition hduncan@scca.com

[woodrufj]

Out for clarification.


Hi, Jayson,

Your request for clarification has been logged 06-087 and sent to the
SEB and SSC.

Thanks!

- Doug

[MX5bob]

The CRV is built on the Civic platform. It is not a light truck, like Mazda Tribute or Ford Exploder.

[autox_a_crv]

The CRV is built on the Civic platform. It is not a light truck, like Mazda Tribute or Ford Exploder.


Right on the dot!!!!! :D

[Bimota Guy]

I do feel bad that you are getting this after you have already run a number of events, someone did not do their job the first time you showed up and it makes for a bad situation now.

Jason, I think saying someone did not do their job is unfair. I know I have always read that rule to mean unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track are to be excluded. And that many of them are SUVs, etc. If it is meant to be an absolute I suggest a re-write which states the specific exclusions first and then states something like...

Additionally, all other unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track shall be excluded.
...or something like that.

[ULLLOSE]

It may sound harsh to you, but that is how I see it. An SUV, CRV is an SUV according to Honda, was allowed to run and at this time SUVs are excluded. You will not see a complete re-write with a detailed exclusion list, if we were to make a list of every make and model SUV/truck/van/car that is excluded it would be four times the size of our current inclusion list and current rule book.
Anytime someone wants to run some oddball model car/truck/suv/ whatever that is not classed they can write a letter and request it.
I do strongly suggest that if this person wants to run the CRV some factual data about the vehicle and mods should be sent, don't rely on others to do it for you.
For the record I did not come search you out to kill your fun, I had no idea this was going on until a letter was submitted to the SEB about an SUV autocrossing in SOPAC division. As I am the SEB rep I looked into this. I think it is great that someone was looking out for the region and brought up this concern, SD has enough heat on us and we don't need more. I have no problem with letting the CRV run IF the SCCA/SEB approves it. I will not however put myself in the position of having to answer the question why is an SUV running in your division without that approval. :)

[Bimota Guy]

If it is meant to be an absolute I suggest a re-write which states the specific exclusions first

You will not see a complete re-write with a detailed exclusion list
I did not mean the names of the models, just the types of vehicles as are currently listed. Apparently I need to be more specific! :D

[Bimota Guy]

Why don't we make a rule to take all the fun out of auto-x? And run all the non-competitive 'fun seekers' off? And leave it to the 'serious' people. They are such a joy to be around.

We could call it the "Give Warren an Internet Connection to Spread Good Cheer" Rule. :rolleyes:

-Steve

[nalbar]

OMG Steve!

Right now my fellow club members are rolling their eyes and going "more like take his connection away to shut him up!"


I guess the karts don't like SCNAX courses, 'cause none came aboard our practice.

To bad, I wanted to see Randy green with envy.

nalbar

[frosty]

OMG Steve!

Right now my fellow club members are rolling their eyes and going "more like take his connection away to shut him up!"

Yes! This one, please!

Wait... maybe I'm not the one who should say this. :rolleyes:

[nalbar]

So now I hear David’s car has been excluded and he can no longer run in San Diego. You all did your ‘jobs’, ‘rules are rules’, ‘nothing personal’, and all that.

Well, I will tell you something. A wrong has been done to this man.

Why?

All he did was come to our events for over a year, pay his fees, do his work and never cause a problem. He joined a club so he could contribute to the sport a little more by helping put on events. He was friendly and helpful. He ran his car and no one had any problems with it or his driving. He is everything the sport should want. I was proud to know him.

That is why.

And now he is gone. Just like that.

Anybody who even played the smallest part in removing him from the sport should feel ashamed. But I suspect your not. Your more likely proud. ‘Protecting the integrity of the sport’ and other such excuses. Fine. But that still leaves the wrong done to a good decent fellow racer.

I have no idea what happens ‘in the background’. I have no idea if people are now seeking to right a wrong. But if the people who helped, in even the smallest way, to bring this about are now walking away without trying to right a wrong both them and the sport are diminished. They don’t have to feel ashamed, I will feel ashamed for them.

They did their ‘jobs’. Now they are done. They walk away.


nalbar

[woodrufj]

Hey Warren try not to be so over dramatic. As you can see I sent it out for clarification. And unless you're privy to information I'm not, you shouldn't be spouting off that David can no longer run in SD.

We're not the only region that has this issue and the SCCA needs to clarify it. LA used to have a bronco run for years and years, but it was so lowered an modified nobody put second thought to it. I remember seeing pictures from a phoenix event, Mr. Isley's former region, where a full size (and full height) GMC AND a suburban were on the course at the same time.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[Bimota Guy]

So now I hear David’s car has been excluded and he can no longer run in San Diego. You all did your ‘jobs’, ‘rules are rules’, ‘nothing personal’, and all that.

Well, I will tell you something. A wrong has been done to this man.

Why?

All he did was come to our events for over a year, pay his fees, do his work and never cause a problem. He joined a club so he could contribute to the sport a little more by helping put on events. He was friendly and helpful. He ran his car and no one had any problems with it or his driving. He is everything the sport should want. I was proud to know him.

That is why.

And now he is gone. Just like that.

Anybody who even played the smallest part in removing him from the sport should feel ashamed. But I suspect your not. Your more likely proud. ‘Protecting the integrity of the sport’ and other such excuses. Fine. But that still leaves the wrong done to a good decent fellow racer.

I have no idea what happens ‘in the background’. I have no idea if people are now seeking to right a wrong. But if the people who helped, in even the smallest way, to bring this about are now walking away without trying to right a wrong both them and the sport are diminished. They don’t have to feel ashamed, I will feel ashamed for them.

They did their ‘jobs’. Now they are done. They walk away.


nalbar
Warren, We did our jobs and followed the appropriate course of action. I made my argument that the rule did not apply and Jason disagreed. So, I followed the rules we operate under. Additionally, David was encouraged to apply for an exemption by Jason, himself. And as soon as I can get David's phone number I will call him and offer to support his application since I have seen the vehicle run and feel it is safe.

And what are you doing to help? Apparently just your usual whining...

Regards,
-Steve Schmidt
SDR SCCA Solo II Chair

[RickRacer]

3.1 Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track, including SUV’s, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded (e.g. Suzuki Samurai, Jeep CJ series, and GEO Tracker/Suzuki Sidekick). Extra caution should be exercised with non-traditional vehicles, e.g. trucks using racing slicks.


Wow, just started reading this thread since it switched to banning SUV's. I read this completely differently than many do apparently. I see the
including SUV’s, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded (e.g. Suzuki Samurai, Jeep CJ series, and GEO Tracker/Suzuki Sidekick). part as a sample of the types of vehicles to watch out for, not an absolute exclusion list. Tech should be on the lookout for
Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track whatever configuration they are. Banning someone who is in a proven safe vehicle based on "someone's" interpretation of a rule seems extreme. Based on the differing interpretations it would seem to me that a ban (if one has happened) should not happen until the rule is clarified. The CRV in question has proven to be safe, so where is the risk? Not like we're trying to force the region to allow a questionable vehicle to run. Just IMHO.

[Bimota Guy]

Banning someone who is in a proven safe vehicle based on "someone's" interpretation of a rule seems extreme. Based on the differing interpretations it would seem to me that a ban (if one has happened) should not happen until the rule is clarified. The CRV in question has proven to be safe, so where is the risk? Not like we're trying to force the region to allow a questionable vehicle to run. Just IMHO.
Rick, I agree with your take on the rule. However calling a member of the SEB "someone" is a bit off base. And that someone disagrees with the way we are looking at the rule. The driver has plenty of time to petition the SCCA and I have offered to support his petition. Additionally Jay has asked for clarification of the rule.

Regards,
-Steve
Just one of the people responsible for enforcing SCCA and SDR Solo II rules.

[bluethunder28]

I think some of you are missing the rule.

3.1 Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track,
including SUV’s, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded
(e.g. Suzuki Samurai, Jeep CJ series, and GEO Tracker/Suzuki
Sidekick). Extra caution should be exercised with non-traditional
vehicles, e.g. trucks using racing slicks. Even Honda calls it an SUV.

Now one needs to start the process of going it approved and that lies in the SEB and not the SSC. Craig and Jayson have all sent the SEB letters. We have given the SEB all the info we had including stuff from the NHTSA.

Bottom line is we need to protect the sport. If something happened with a vehicle that's on the list and caused major injury, the insurance company could cancel it's coverage for our events.

Let the SEB do it's thing and clear this up.

[MX5bob]

I don't really care what Honda or any other carmaker calls a vehicle in the marketing material. Inclusions and exclusions need to be based on facts, not marketing hype. Chevy didn't call the Suburban an SUV until it suited the marketing campaign that started less than 10 years ago. Did anyone think it didn't fit the category just because GM didn't use the label?

[Bimota Guy]

I think some of you are missing the rule.

3.1 Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track,
including SUV’s, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded
(e.g. Suzuki Samurai, Jeep CJ series, and GEO Tracker/Suzuki
Sidekick). Extra caution should be exercised with non-traditional
vehicles, e.g. trucks using racing slicks. Even Honda calls it an SUV.

Now one needs to start the process of going it approved and that lies in the SEB and not the SSC. Craig and Jayson have all sent the SEB letters. We have given the SEB all the info we had including stuff from the NHTSA.

Bottom line is we need to protect the sport. If something happened with a vehicle that's on the list and caused major injury, the insurance company could cancel it's coverage for our events.

Let the SEB do it's thing and clear this up.
Glenn, Placing certain words in bold lettering and underlining them does not change the very poor wording of this rule if the intent was to ban all SUVs, minivans, and 4WD pickups. Having said that, I enforced the SEB member's position for the reason you stated.

I hope the member applies for, and is granted, an exception. Moreover, I hope the clarification states all SUVs, etc. are not excluded, only those which are "Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track."

To achieve the claimed meaning of banning all SUVs, etc. I believe the rule should have been written...


3.1 SUV’s, minivans, and 4WD pickups must be excluded. Additionally, all unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track must be excluded. Extra caution should be exercised with non-traditional vehicles, e.g. trucks using racing slicks.
I excluded the examples given in the current version since they fall under the SUV portion of the exclusion as I have written it.

-Steve

[MX5bob]

Jason,

When the SEB deals with this rule, please write the plural like this: SUVs; not SUV's. There is no contraction nor is it a possesive. Misplaced apostrophes are how car dealers write their ads. :(

[kb58]

I think some of you are missing the rule.

3.1 Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track,
including SUV’s, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded
(e.g. Suzuki Samurai, Jeep CJ series, and GEO Tracker/Suzuki
Sidekick). Extra caution should be exercised with non-traditional
vehicles, e.g. trucks using racing slicks. Even Honda calls it an SUV.

Bottom line is we need to protect the sport. If something happened with a vehicle that's on the list and caused major injury, the insurance company could cancel it's coverage for our events.

Let the SEB do it's thing and clear this up.


Yes it's an SUV, yes the rules say it can't be run. Yet for whatever reason, it was run, many times, and didn't tip over. What more proof of safety is needed? No, it shouldn't have been allowed to run in the first place, but it did, and ran fine. What sucks is, rules are rules, plus it's only a matter of time before some other SUV owner uses this one as a "reason" why *he* should be allowed to run, and rolls it... that would be bad.

[CNaylor]

As Glen had said, I too have submitted a request for clarification of the rule As a SSS I don't want to ban someone from fun that others allow, due to interpretations differing from other SSS. Some of those in SD (and other areas) have technical vehicle backgrounds. I don't. I'm not going to determine a car is "more stable" due to modifications, because I can't. Personally I don't agree with the interpretation others here are making, as what definition justifies the center of gravity being "high". On the other hand, I do understand their arguement, and find it worth seaking clarification.
In my communications with Doug (technical director at SCCA), apparently prior requests for clarification on the current rule as written, have gone unanswered. However requests for interpretation of aplication of the rule have resulted in the Subaru Forester (based upon the Impulse platform) specifically classed, and the Infinity FX's (based on the Z car platform) specifically denied (but how many knew that?).

Doug helped me create my request so as to cover new ground, I have asked for it to be submitted to risk management, as my consern has to do with the insurance conserns over the interpretation variation issue. It is listed as Log number is 06-082.

Craig

[lost won]

Unstable? Hmmm. High center of gravity? Hmmm. Narrow track? Hmmm.

Turning circle? Ridiculous. Tires? Firestones, of course.

Fun. Yeah. But I have to agree; it DOESN"T BELONG on an SCCA course....

http://www.z06vette.com/gallery/data/500/3765IMG_1757-med.JPG

It's too bad some rules take some of the fun away; but it has to be. Let's try to understand.

[lost won]

But, it's got FOUR bogeys of TWO wheels each, that can turn thirty degrees off center for cross winds, and TWO extra training wheels under the wings. A SIXTEEN foot track. ABS on HUGE brakes, and a drogue chute, too.
Cool Goodyear special tires rated for 200 Knots...

http://www.z06vette.com/gallery/data/500/3765IMG_19841-med.JPG

PLEASE, PLEASE, can I Auto-X it??? Just this once? You guys are NO fun!!

[frosty]

But, it's got FOUR bogeys of TWO wheels each, that can turn thirty degrees off center for cross winds, and TWO extra training wheels under the wings. A SIXTEEN foot track. ABS on HUGE brakes, and a drogue chute, too.
Cool Goodyear special tires rated for 200 Knots...

http://www.z06vette.com/gallery/data/500/3765IMG_19841-med.JPG

PLEASE, PLEASE, can I Auto-X it??? Just this once? You guys are NO fun!!

We're... uh.. I bit concerned about the course workers. And noise.

[mievil]

And the payload. Imagine one of those suckers rolling over. We could have a cool rallyX where the Q used to be. :D

And to try to steer this back on topic (I know, fat chance), I wonder if one could buy a B52 on Craigslist. And if there was one, would it be a scam?

Back on topic before I ban you all. ;)

[cshodges]

We're... uh.. I bit concerned about the course workers. And noise.

Umm.. can you keep it under 93dB on course? For that matter, can you keep it on course without whacking cones on both sides simultaneously? :D

[frosty]

Umm.. can you keep it under 93dB on course? For that matter, can you keep it on course without whacking cones on both sides simultaneously? :D

Even if you could keep the main wheels on the course, I'll bet you'd have trouble with your jet blast blowing over cones... and trash cans, port-a-potties, course workers, fire extinguishers...

[lost won]

Details, details, details

What's a little noise, jet blast, nuclear radiation? Just trying to get you guys to think out of the box. We used to call jet noise the sound of freedom. What ever happened to that? Talk about blowing away the competition.....

First National Tour they hold at Edwards AFB, I'm there.;)

[barkingspyder]

Details, details, details

What's a little noise, jet blast, nuclear radiation? Just trying to get you guys to think out of the box. We used to call jet noise the sound of freedom. What ever happened to that? Talk about blowing away the competition.....

First National Tour they hold at Edwards AFB, I'm there.;)

We still call it the sound of freedom, it's the neighbors that have issues....

[Pete L]

...

In my communications with Doug (technical director at SCCA), apparently prior requests for clarification on the current rule as written, have gone unanswered. However requests for interpretation of aplication of the rule have resulted in the Subaru Forester (based upon the Impulse platform) specifically classed, and the Infinity FX's (based on the Z car platform) specifically denied (but how many knew that?).

......

Craig

Craig, you meant Impreza, not the Isuzu Impulse of yesteryear.
And yes, I am running my Forester Turbo at the SCCA ProSolo next weekend without any hoopla about it being a SUV.
The VIN plate on my Forester specifically states "Passenger CAR"
I wonder if the CRV has that???

[CNaylor]

Craig, you meant Impreza, not the Isuzu Impulse of yesteryear.
Your correct, my bad. I've been searching for a '92-'93 Impulse RS receintly, must have had that on my mind when I wrote this.
Back on subject, is there a way to do a national search for autos, vs each and every community on craigslist? I've been watching autotrader, and ebay, but would love to add others sources to watch, as only 500 of these cars existed when new, who knows how many exist today?

[MX5bob]

Your correct, my bad. I've been searching for a '92-'93 Impulse RS receintly, must have had that on my mind when I wrote this.
Back on subject, is there a way to do a national search for autos, vs each and every community on craigslist? I've been watching autotrader, and ebay, but would love to add others sources to watch, as only 500 of these cars existed when new, who knows how many exist today?

Yahoo's autos section allows national searches I think. There's also Cars.com.