Displaced cone?

[car583]

At yesterday's event, I stopped for a cone that was partially out of the box and expected to get a rerun. This turned out to be an interesting exercise. The trailer told me that since the cone was still partially in the box, it was 'legal' and that I wouldn't get a rerun. I asked several people, and the response was mixed. One person told me that on a regional level they could allow a rerun, but at the national level they would not. (For the record, the event chairman allowed me to take the rerun, but I chose not to.)

When I got home, I checked the 2008 SCCA rule book. http://scca.org/documents/Solo%20Rules/2008_Solo_Rules_2.pdf
Section 7.9 on pages 45 and 46 deals with Penalties.

Section 7.9.1 describes the pylons and states:
... If the pylon is upset or totally displaced outside the penalty limit, two seconds will be assessed. ...
This is accompanied by 3 graphics of when a penalty is assessed for the down or totally displaced cone. This is followed by another 3 graphics of when a penalty is not assessed because the cone is not totally displaced.

Section 7.9.2 describes Pylons Down on Course and states:
A competitor encountering a downed or displaced pylon on course has the option of continuing the run or stopping as soon as possible, and pointing out the downed or displaced pylon to a course worker. ...


This rule does not state the pylon has to be totally displaced, only displaced. To me, this indicates that if a pylon is partially out of the box (the pylon in question yesterday resembled the 2nd graphic of the no penalty assessed section), and the driver stops and points it out then a rerun should be given at both the regional and national level.

Please explain to me if I'm interpreting this incorrectly.

Thanks,
carol

[Tyson]

I had the same problem 2 years ago. If the cone is displaced (not perfectly in the box) you get a re-run. I was told the same thing you were, but when I pointed out the rule, as you have, I got the re-run.

[woodrufj]

Its a re-run, simple as that. Think about a zero offset sloalm. If each of those cones was 75% out unfavorabley, think about how much time you'd give up.

Jay W

[SoJim]

I think you did the right thing. Questionable calls should always be challenged to determine the correct solution. It's the only way to keep a level playing field.

[nalbar]

My understanding of the rule is Carol doe NOT get a rerun. It's not down, and it is not totally displaced. 'Displaced' means out of the box completely.

But we ARE a local yokal event in a cheese water town in a hick part of the state, driving in a parking lot for tiny plastic trophy's that cost 15 dollars.

I give her the rerun, simply because reruns are fun.

But it would be nice to get a clarification.

One thing Carol did right is she went to the Event Chair with her issue. It is not the job of the people in the trailer to take runs away, no matter what they say. The person working cone count is no 'higher up' than the person putting the cone back in the box.

It's the job of the trailer to refer it to the Event Chair. He makes the first decision, after that it would go to the Protest Committee.

nalbar

[froggy47]

Most of the seasoned guys/gals that I know go to great lengths to check a cone that has been "wobbled". I will point it out to another worker if it's close to them & they did not see the wobble. This is sometimes the case when you have a good sight angle & another worker has their sight line blocked by the car.

Happened a few times in run group 3 when I was on sound. Section at the Chicago box.

Nice course BTW (except the start).

Each driver has the right to run the SAME COURSE as his competition. Not a course almost the same except for a few cones that are just a little bit out of the box.

We are not BMWCCA or PCA events where the integrity of the course is secondary to the casual & fun atmosphere of the event. We are hard core.

Confusion happens when a course worker not familiar with the rules (new to scca autox) will go over to the cone in question and tell T&S it was "in the box" when it was actually just touching part of the box.

This driver was clearly entitled to a rerun.

Happy Holidays & thanks SCNAX great day. Lots of fun. You guys/gals rock.

:shift:

[RandyC]

Two different criteria that confuses people.

1. A cone counts if it is down or totally out of the box. That is in regards to the two second penalty.

2. A cone is displaced if it not properly inside the box. That effects anyone asking for a re-run.

Certainly some gray ground here if the amount of displacement is very minor. But if they driver can see a cone is not properly placed, then it can't be too small a displacement I would think.

ANyway... yea...a rerun should be granted.

[woodrufj]

BTW, there's always limited time to argue about such things during a run group and usually it's busy in the trailer. What often works best is to just ask for a 'provisional run'. Then you can settle the issue when everyone has time to talk and you have an extra time on the books that can be used if you win the argument.

Jay W

[DSG Envy]

Last weekend a slalom cone teamBLEW's course was slightly clocked.
(2-3degrees ?)

A call was made and it was checked.

I heard the driver was granted his rerun.

[itrbruce]

...we ARE a local yokal event in a cheese water town in a hick part of the state, driving in a parking lot for tiny plastic trophy's that cost 15 dollars.

I give her the rerun, simply because reruns are fun.
nalbar

Don't you mean "gived" :D

What I really wanted to say was great & fun course Michael & SCNAX. Thanks for the good time.

[mcontour]

I understand rules is rules, but this one has a potential to seriously impact events...not just in time for reruns, but in giving folks extra looks at the course that may not be deserved.

I will guarantee you that if I hit a cone or spin out early in a run, I will proceed along the course at less than full speed eyeballing every cone. I can almost assure you that I will find one that is partially outside of the box.

While this sounds somewhat contrary to the spirit of the sport, if it's legal........someone will take advantage of it.

You are allowed to continue past a downed cone, but you're at risk of that cone being called on you if the course worker didn't know it was already down. If you drive past a partially displaced cone, there is no risk of penalty.

:cool:

[woodrufj]

There's also National unsportsmanlike rules (as oppose to our local unsportsmenlike rule) that address this and can be applied if someone is making an unreasonable attempt to find a rerun.

Jay W



I will guarantee you that if I hit a cone or spin out early in a run, I will proceed along the course at less than full speed eyeballing every cone. I can almost assure you that I will find one that is partially outside of the box.

[mcontour]

a bit of sarcasm implied, although not stated.

:eyecrazy:

[73STS]

Warren

You need to reread the 2 rules in question before the next tour.

7.9.1 comes into play when you have hit a cone. It is pretty cut and dry - the cone is down (tipped over) and it does not matter if it remains in the box or not.
or
it is upright but completely displaced from the box - meaning it is not touching the marked box.
As Carol says the rule book shows several situations that cover this.

7.9.2 covers when you are on course but see a down or displaced cone. You have the option to stop and point it out or proceed on with your run. The cone does not have to be completely displaced here. As pointed out you run the risk of the cone being called on you if you did not stop. The burden of proof now shifts to you the driver if you didn't stop - you have to prove that the cone was not yours - which will then mean an event official will attempt to find course workers to verify your story. It is possible that you did not see the down or displaced cone so you did not stop.

Remember that anyone can be protested for unsportsmanlike behavior - it's probably very difficult to prove at a local event as opposed to Nationals where this behavior (searching for down cones/looking for rerun) is specifically mentioned in the event supp regs.

[nalbar]

Mark, you are just the guy I wanted to chip in.

But I was not contesting a 'counted' cone, or the rules quoted by Carol. Michael made the point well, and I believe that is why there is a grey area, to prevent people from searching for a slightly moved cone, particularly those way off on the outside.

Mark, is there a grey area here? Have you seen this at Nationals when you were Chief of Course?

It seems like the rule is ambivalent to prevent just that. Hence the refusal to say 'Fully Displaced'. To allow Chief of Course to make a determination between a partially displaced slolumn cone and a partially displaced 'outlier'. Then, of course, present the findings to either the Steward or the Event Chair. Because as far as I know, it's not the Chief of Course job to take a rerun away. That's someone else's job.

BTW, you knew I was a noob when you hired me! You hired me for my work ethic, not my knowledge.


:rolleyes:



nalbar

[73STS]

I don't think there is a grey area here regarding these rules (7.9.1 & 7.9.2) that are in the rule book.

Are the rules specific enough or do they cover every instance - no - but how thick would the rule book be if they attempted to.

I think a lot of things such as unsportsmanlike conduct regarding hunting for down/displaced cones are left for the competitors to police - either by peer pressure to do the right thing or thru the protest process.

And you are right - the chief of course gets to do all the groundwork in getting everything so the op steward can make the decision. This is why the op stewards get all the chicks - right Bob:D.

You do a great job as chief of course Warren:rock2:

[nalbar]

:banana:

I still think the classic was two years ago when a corner chief called a cone on a car but called me out on course to discuss it. The car had hit a chunked area and a piece of asphalt had flown SIX FEET (I measured it) and knocked over a cone. The course workers called it in but did not think it was fair.

The pleasure of working these events is dealing with people who know what to do and always try to do the right thing.


I will now know the answer Mark. I had asked the very question Carol did at a Board Meeting earlier this year. Turns out I got the wrong answer! (It's amazing how often that happens)


nalbar

[Bimota Guy]

One has to assume Section 7.9.2 deliberately does not use the term "totally displaced" as does 7.9.1 in order to differentiate the criteria for each rule. One might wonder if these were in separate sections of the rules.

[woodrufj]

Courious what the ruling was?

In rallyX we definitly count it. I've seen water logged regional races call these both ways.

Jay W


I still think the classic was two years ago when a corner chief called a cone on a car but called me out on course to discuss it. The car had hit a chunked area and a piece of asphalt had flown SIX FEET (I measured it) and knocked over a cone. The course workers called it in but did not think it was fair.

[nalbar]

Naturally it was at the TOP of the course. I listened to the corner captain, paced the distance, and took it to the Event Chair.

No count was the decision. I doubt the driver ever knew there was an issue.

The last Tour there was another interesting issue, but harder to explain.

The designer made the course so there were few cones as you entered most of the turns, but more on the outside exits, so as you approached you saw a 'wall', it was great on Sat. and then he and I changed directions and moved the 'walls' so what was once the outside entrance was the outside exit. But we missed one 'wall', and it left a 'orphan' cone on the outside exit (a cone without a matching cone on the opposite side of the course) of a turn. Unfortunately this made the exit of the turn look like a gate with one cone slolumn. A person could take the turn at a greater, wider speed ( a LOT faster!) and 'sweep' the orphan, and then claim the orphan was a slolum cone.

Corner Cap called me out first run group to show it to me, and sure as heck a car 'swept' the cone (crossing the ckaulk line as he did) as I was standing there. Corner Cap looked at me and said 'See? You make the darn call..DNF or no?'. I said 'He crossed the chaulk.... DNF and lets see if he complains'.

I sweated the whole freaking day. And learned a GREAT lesson about 'orphans'.

nalbar

[froggy47]

. I said 'He crossed the chaulk.... DNF and lets see if he complains'.

nalbar

Which leads to another question (thread drift warning).

When did it come to pass that chalk is allowed to be deposited on the holy ground.

I was always told it was illegal as it would be carried by the rains into the "river bed" and kill all sorts of flora & fauna?

EPA, PETA, Cal Coastal Commission would all descend and arrest us.

:banana:

Follow up & further thread drift. You saying that if I stay on the CONE course but somewhere cross a CHALK COURSE line I DNF'd?

:confused:

[nalbar]

No, you will not DNF if you cross the CHALK (thanks for the spelling tip). But this guy went around an outside cone. But your question highlights the 'danger' of an orphan.

We did not use CHALK this past Sunday. It was flour, which is OK.


nalbar

[froggy47]

Thanks, got it.

http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/rules.gif