Why are the courses so slow?

[SLARGE]

Why are the courses so slow? Is it because of insurance? I’ve asked around and heard that some people (with small 4 cly convertibles) complain when a course is too fast. I’ve raced in around 20 events and I’ve shifted into third once or twice. I never get a chance to practice my heel and toe.

The longer and faster Porsche and BMW club courses are exactly what I’m looking for. The Porsche guys told me they hit over 100mph sometimes. Once again I suspect insurance costs but I would pay double to race on a faster track. A couple “fast” events a year would be great and I’ll bet they would sell out every time.

[jason]

The SCCA rulebook states that Solo2 courses should not be any more hazardous than legal highway driving and also recommends a top speed in the low 60's. Do you really think it's safe to be doing 100mph in a parking lot with course workers surrounding the course? On top of that, raw speed really isn't the point of autocross. To me, it's much more exciting to drive 50mph through a slalom than 100mph in a straight.

If you just want to go fast, do some track days. You can heel/toe all day...
http://redlinetrackevents.com/
http://www.speedventures.com/

[frosty]

I'd rather do 30 mph through gates than 50 mph through sloloms :D (but I don't like them yet because they are my weak point).

At the last practice, I needed to downshift three times on the course. I wished I knew how to heel-toe but I was a bit busy with other things.

100 mph in that space is pretty fast, but also remember that people are hitting that in cars with 300+ hp and are still in 3rd. I heard something about a BMW M3 crashing into a light post in LA not too long ago (heard it from this guy who heard it from that guy who... you get the idea, I'm a bit fuzzy on the details). Most people don't have cars designed for nor safe enough to handle performance driving at 100 mph. BMWs and Porsches are designed for the auttobaun. Mazda3s and (sadly) even my WRX wasn't. Were it legal, the car could cruise clear freeways at 100 safely, but racing it at 100 is another matter.

So it comes down to this:
1) Rules
2) Lack of the needed safety equipment (true racing at 100 mph shouldn't be done in a car designed to be safe at 65 mph)
3) Lack of driver skill (not you experienced guys, us Novices)
4) Lack of cars that can drive that speed safely

[RandyC]

Look, we have had some incidents in San Diego, and a major contributing factor is speed. You can't guarantee that 200 entrants will all drive well enough and without incident with 100mph courses.

In fact, because of our course speeds and our history of incidents, we are on a probation of sorts from SCCA. They provide our insurance and we have to follow their rules. All courses have to have maps submitted to safety at SCCA for approval prior to us being allowed to even have an event.

Going fast can be fun and can have a certain pucker factor, but autocross is not a test of speed, it is a test of technical skill.

For those wanting to go faster, you have some other options. High speed driving events/track days. Time Attack. And ...


The longer and faster Porsche and BMW club courses are exactly what I’m looking for.

Problem solved! :)

[MX5bob]

Why are the courses so slow? Is it because of insurance? I’ve asked around and heard that some people (with small 4 cly convertibles) complain when a course is too fast.

As an owner of a small 4-cylinder convertible, I've never heard anyone "complain" that the course was too fast. I've heard people say a course was too fast for the National rule.

BTW, how about putting a real name in your sig? Or is this Jeff Kiesel with a new log-in? :D

[freshspecbluegt]

Trolls eventually hit every board on the internet don't they?

If the longer faster Porshe and BMW club courses are what you are looking for go play with them; they'll let you pay double to boot then everyone is happy.

Ross

[frosty]

In fact, because of our course speeds and our history of incidents, we are on a probation of sorts from SCCA. They provide our insurance and we have to follow their rules. All courses have to have maps submitted to safety at SCCA for approval prior to us being allowed to even have an event.

Are we doing this better and safer now?

[Bimota Guy]

Are we doing this better and safer now?
Time (a lack of incidents) will tell.

[kevin_stevens]

I drove by a Porsche Club event last year and was appalled to see them running *wheel to wheel* with multiple cars on course. I don't care about speed per se, but everyone who uses Qualcomm needs to realize that what they do WRT safety affects everyone else as well.

If you want to run 100mph, there's plenty of places to do that. A parking lot with hard barriers isn't one of them.

KeS

[paul]

Porche club events that go wheel to wheel aren't "autox" events. They are more like driving events you would find at a road course. I too was shocked when I saw them going wheel to wheel with some cars close to or above 100mph down the straights.

Scary... I sure as hell wouldn't want to work that course.
http://www.cchanphotography.com/gallery2/d/174-1/7708.jpg

[Bimota Guy]

I too was shocked when I saw them going wheel to wheel with some cars close to or above 100mph down the straights.
I have a reliable source who says well above 100. In fact he pulled up to our auto-x event in one of the east lots and told me how fast he was just going in the west lot.

[frosty]

I'd seen them do the wheel to wheel thing. It just seemed so rediculous that I thought they were doing something like having an instructor in a lead car and other people following his lines (but not pushing the limit).

If they are doing wheel to wheel, then I can guarentee you'll never see our 944 at one of their events. I'm not sure if it can even do 100 mph in that space, but I don't feel like finding out.

BTW:
There was some discussion on the weird noise that the 944 made at the Dec 3rd event. Our trusted mechanic shop found that it was a timing chain out of place by one link (so, not the exhaust and not the transmission). Can't wait to drive it again.

[JamesWilson]

PCA events are called "DE" or Driver's Education, where they set up practice road courses and have serious instructor interaction and much more safety gear and insurance and driver requirements. It is intended as a learning event and stepping stone for their Time Trial series, and you must run several AX events before doing a DE, and a few of those before you do a TT. The photo was from one of those events, and they are not "open" to the public to run....very controlled environment, much more safety gear (manditory race harnesses, fire extinguisher, approved helmet, full tech inspection, roll bars + firesuits for certain classings of cars).

I wouldn't hesitate for one moment to do one, it's just not their typical "autocross".

Their autocross events are different and very fun, a little faster, and you get 12 laps for the day.....and free beer when the course is cleaned up! Good people, too....but you must own and drive a Porsche :-(

[paul]

Not so much the safety of the drivers I'm worried about. As a course worker, I wouldn't want to be out there with cars traveling as fast as they do so close.


PCA events are called "DE" or Driver's Education, where they set up practice road courses and have serious instructor interaction and much more safety gear and insurance and driver requirements. It is intended as a learning event and stepping stone for their Time Trial series, and you must run several AX events before doing a DE, and a few of those before you do a TT. The photo was from one of those events, and they are not "open" to the public to run....very controlled environment, much more safety gear (manditory race harnesses, fire extinguisher, approved helmet, full tech inspection, roll bars + firesuits for certain classings of cars).

I wouldn't hesitate for one moment to do one, it's just not their typical "autocross".

Their autocross events are different and very fun, a little faster, and you get 12 laps for the day.....and free beer when the course is cleaned up! Good people, too....but you must own and drive a Porsche :-(

[frosty]

Not so much the safety of the drivers I'm worried about. As a course worker, I wouldn't want to be out there with cars traveling as fast as they do so close.

Scares me being out there going as "slow" as they go already. I've literally dodged two cars in the 3 months I've autoxed.

[cshodges]

Part of working the course is knowing where not to stand. Be on the inside of the turn, not in the likely path of a skidding car. Keep your distance from the course.

Just remember, if we have to call and Ambulance to scrap your butt off the pavement, it'll slow down the event a lot more than giving someone a rerun because you didn't get the cones back in place in time. :eek:

[frosty]

Part of working the course is knowing where not to stand. Be on the inside of the turn, not in the likely path of a skidding car. Keep your distance from the course.

Just remember, if we have to call and Ambulance to scrap your butt off the pavement, it'll slow down the event a lot more than giving someone a rerun because you didn't get the cones back in place in time. :eek:

Hahah...

Fortunately, I was in the inside of the turn. Unfortunately, it was a spin-happy corvette with a bit of oversteer.

[Andrew]

Unfortunately, it was a spin-happy corvette with a bit of oversteer.

Corvettes are easier to jump over than most other cars. :p

[frosty]

Corvettes are easier to jump over than most other cars. :p

You know, I almost did that. If I didn't get quite out of the way, my mind was already considering a little hop (being sure to get my legs high), land with my butt on his hood and roll over to the other side (I do Aikido, so wacky aerial stunts done safely is common for me) :p .

In a way, I'm disappointed about two things from that. 1) It wasn't video taped (some people were video taping near by, but just happened to miss that). 2) I didn't get a video tape of me pulling this jackass stunt and putting a big butt print into the fiberglass hood of the 'vette :D .

[Roostie]

What a horrible hi-jack of an originally good thread. But I have to respond, because the rumors about the supposed danger of the PCA events are dangerous to our sport. Please, don't get nasty rumors started based on your uninformed perception of how dangerous some events are that you haven't participated in. That is SILLY, but it is malicious because uninformed rumors and opinions can get momentum behind them and do a lot of harm.

I state with great confidence that your opinions (Kevin, Frosty, Paul), that the PCA events are dangerous and reckless, are flat out wrong. Some of you assumed the drivers work the course as in autocross, shagging cones and standing in harm's way. All of you seem to think there's no way to safely go fast in the West Lot.

Look, there are some experienced people in charge who are not completely stupid, O.K.? PCA has some good people and they are concerned about safety. At these high speed DE's (as opposed to PCA's autocrosses), the courseworkers don't shag cones like you do at autocross. At a DE they use *corner workers* like you have at any high speed track, such as Willow Springs. Their job is to flag cars (yellow, red, blue and black flags), not shag cones, and at the PCA DE I did, the club had paid workers who worked on course the whole day. Thus, if you actually did one of these events, you wouldn't have to work the course at all. Mmmm-k? When cones get hit during a session, they may stay knocked over till the run session is over. The flag men won't run out on course with 25 cars engaged in continuous lapping.

This may be hard to fathom, but the West Lot is big enough that if you only put 6 turns in it, you can have the fastest cars breaking over 100 mph on the main straight and still have PLENTY of run-off room. Cars slow down faster than they accelerate; a 911 Turbo that goes 0-100 in 10 seconds may be able to stop in just 5. With the main straight going uphill and the turn being long before the end of the lot, there is PLENTY of runoff room if you pick too late of a braking point.

Drivers are grouped according to experience and skill; a lot of instruction is given and nobody drives alone until they have proven themselves over and over to be well in control. There are strictly controlled passing rules, with more freedom given to the drivers in the group of most experienced drivers. If you spin out, go off course at all, or look ragged, you have to leave the track, go to the hot pits and meet with the black flag steward, to talk about what went wrong and how to alter your driving. That's just an example of the safety rules that apply.

I've done track days at a number of race tracks and can say that my DE experience in the West Lot felt far safer than days spent lapping such places as Laguna Seca, Sears Point (Infineon) or Willow Springs. Bad drivers at those events can usually go at least half a day before someone gives them a counseling session; at PCA, everyone is watched much more closely and gets a lot more feedback. It's a driving-school type of event.

Please don't bad mouth the PCA DE (or autocross) events unless you actually attend one. By that I mean go and watch a whole run group, to see how flagging, instruction and passing is done. See how much runoff room there is. Then if you want to say it isn't safe, you'll have a valid basis for voicing that opinion. But maybe at that point you should direct your comments straight to PCA. They have safety officials that would listen.

- Ted Drcar

[ttweed]

I state with great confidence that your opinions (Kevin, Frosty, Paul), that the PCA events are dangerous and reckless, are flat out wrong.
Thank you, Ted! I started reading this thread and was shocked by the "tangentiation" and the accompanying accusation that the PCA-SDR DE events held in the west lot are unsafe and a threat to the motorsports community's future use of the facility. You did an excellent job of explaining the true nature of the events, and I hesitate to repeat them, but the perception that they are "wheel-to-wheel" racing is mistaken. That happens only at the club racing level in PCA, and even then there is a well-defined "13/13" rule in place to prohibit incidents that result in damage.

There is no competition in these DE events, no official timing, no trophies, no diving under people to pass for position in the corners-- they are an interim driver training event to transition skills from tight autox courses to the higher speed time trials held on the big tracks. There are well-defined passing zones, only on the straights, and all passing is accomplished cooperatively, with a point-by. The corner workers are the same paid, professional crew used at Willow Springs International Raceway.

PCA has a carefully structured and progressive program for instruction and licensing of drivers from autox to DE to Time Trial to Club Racing, and it is accomplished in a rational and proven manner, with a great deal of emphasis placed on safety, from car prep requirements to black flag regulations, as you mentioned. There have been no incidents resulting in damage or injury during the DE events at Qualcomm that I can recall.

I have been participating in the PCA driving programs for 8 years now, and I have NEVER gone 100 mph in a PCA autox at Qualcomm, even in the highest powered cars. In the DE events, it is possible to hit 4th gear and briefly exceed that speed on some of the longest straightaways. A typical autox course is much tighter than the DE courses, and only marginally faster than the SCCA standard. Please don't confuse the two venues.

[ttweed]

....but you must own and drive a Porsche :-(
James is another person who has personal knowledge and experience with the PCA-SDR events and offers a more factual perspective of them here. I would add that while a PCA membership is necessary to participate, there are possibilities for participation that do not require "owning and driving a Porsche." There is one "Associate" membership available to every PCA member, so if you know someone who is already a member, they can designate you as an associate. You will then be under the PCA insurance umbrella and allowed to run in their events. Driving a non-Porsche car in them is up to the event master, and may be restricted, but is possible in "Exhibition" class at their discretion. We have had many other marques participate over the years, and I have seen local SCCA members like James Gunn-Wilkinson, Gary Thomason, Leslie Cohen, Brad Underdahl and Ted Drcar running their non-Porsche cars in PCA events. I have run my own non-Porsche cars at times. As long as the vehicle can meet the technical inspection standards for the type of event and the driver has appropriate experience, even the DE and TT events are accessible.

Personally, I find it a bit unsatisfying from a driving standpoint to run the "3 laps and you're done" SCCA championship event format, so while I have participated in a couple of the National Tour events over the years (and even trophied once :D ), I usually only participate in the local Solo2 practice events with SCCA, where the number of laps may approach the same level as a PCA autox. It is true that a PCA autox costs $40, but you will get 12-14 laps in 2 practice sessions and then timed runs, plus free beverages all day (the alcoholic ones only come out after the course is picked up! :D ) If you added the cost for that many X-class and fun runs at an SCCA championship event, they are not any more expensive.

For $80, you can run four 20-25 minute practice sessions of continuous lapping in a single day at a DE event at Qualcomm. In terms of seat time, this is almost an entire season of autox and the most "bang for the driving event buck" I have ever seen. For $275, you can run an entire weekend of time trialing at big tracks such as WSIR, Streets of Willow, Ca. Speedway, Buttonwillow, and Spring Mountain with PCA-SDR, without ever owning a Porsche, if you work at it.

Hope to see some more of you out there sometime, if your interest extends beyond autocrossing.

TT

[JamesWilson]

Thank you Tom and Ted for providing clear and factual clarification as to the actual conditions that the PCA-SDR run their events under.

That being said, very few times have I felt safer and/or have had more fun than at a PCA-SDR autocross!

They also welcome others from other clubs/bodies to come and watch the events and see how they're run, I suggest that during such an event other SCCA drivers come out and see some "other" driving events, whether it be with PCA, BMWCCA, NASA, POC, Gravel Crew RallyX, San Diego RallyX, a private open track days to broaden their horizons and get as much seat time or just a fun day at the track!

-JamesW
SCCA member
BMWCCA member
PCA member
NASA member

[frosty]

I second that thank you.

"Is it autox?" "Is it wheel to wheel autox?" "Are beginner drivers going 100+?" "Do I have to shag cones in the middle of their runs?" All of these questions are answered with such clarity that few will misunderstand.

[barkingspyder]

Is there any PCA members looking for an associate?;)

[kevin_stevens]

I can state with great confidence that your opinions (Kevin, Frosty, Paul), that the PCA events are dangerous and reckless, are flat out wrong.

I said that I saw cars running wheel to wheel. Not an opinion, a fact.

I said that I was appalled. Not an opinion, a fact.

I said that the continued use of Qualcomm is contingent on the safety record of ALL the parties using the site. That's an opinion, but it isn't about the PCA, and I don't think it's wrong; and in any case I'm sure you aren't in a position to know whether it is or isn't.

I'm out of this thread.

KeS

[dwkfym]

(I do Aikido, so wacky aerial stunts done safely is common for me) :p .


I do Hapkido, which is actually the same korean counterpart (same chinese characters). Aside from one incident of slipping on a bar of soap and another of flying off a motorcycle, I've never done a real-live wacky stunt :D maybe in autocross it will save my life (once again)

[Tyson]

[I]

I said that I was appalled. Not an opinion, a fact.

KeS

Actually that is an opinion--and a personal one at that--don't twist it


[I]

I'm out of this thread.

KeS

Mature responses like this never give you much credibility.

Best of luck in the future.

[JamesWilson]

Ouch, the high school english teacher steps in.....be gentle, Tyson!

-JW

[frosty]

Actually that is an opinion--and a personal one at that--don't twist it

Actually... that Kevin was appauled is a fact (although his reasons for such might be opinion).

- Signed by "Got a C- in High School English"

[Tyson]

Actually... that Kevin was appauled is a fact (although his reasons for such might be opinion).

- Signed by "Got a C- in High School English"

Must I even start this?

You cannot back up a fact with an opinion. It doesn't work that way. If that were true, then all logic can be thrown out the window now.

[frosty]

Preface: Aww... crap... if this starts bugging everyone else just tell us and we'll stop.


Must I even start this?

You cannot back up a fact with an opinion. It doesn't work that way. If that were true, then all logic can be thrown out the window now.

You can't back up fact with an opinion, that is correct. Logic only works with facts.

Being appauled is an emotion. Emotions are affected by opinions (regardless of whether they are fact or fiction). The fact is that he had an opinion that was such to appaul him. Therefore, he was appauled.

[woodrufj]

GRAMMER RODEO.

He said he "was appauled", not that it was "appauling". ;-).

Don't care either way. If you don't like what they do, then don't do what they do.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[MX5bob]

GRAMMER RODEO.

He said he "was appauled", not that it was "appauling". ;-).

Don't care either way. If you don't like what they do, then don't do what they do.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

Uh, that's grammar. :D

[frosty]

Uh, that's grammar. :D
:eek: :D

(I didn't catch that either :o )

[woodrufj]

Uh, that's grammar. :D
Naw, that's speeling.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota